I'm continuing to split my focus between improving my live game play and also building up the bankroll. Most days I play 2 sessions, a short live session and a slightly longer online session. (The day job really gets in the way!!! :P)
My net results from yesterday were my 2nd best ever for ring games. The live game was very average but I was fortunate to win a couple of sizable pots where my big hands held up, but just as importantly get in quite a few value bets on the marginal hands. The big pots really stand out in people's minds, but those marginal hands where you win (or save) 2-3 extra big bets per hour make a gigantic difference. The online session was the standard donk-fest. My Euro account still only has around $2k, so I'm still quad tabling at $3/$6. My online funds are spread out among too many accounts, and I should repatriate a decent amount at least to neteller so that I can at least feel comfortable playing $5/$10 6 max at Euro.
Today, I gave back about a third of yesterday's wins. The $20/$40 live game today was truly amazing. There was one player who cold called 2 or 3 bets cold preflop > 25 times in one hour. Even if this was not enough action, he then proceeded to go on tilt when he got 14 outed on the turn after flopping middle pair headsup. He simply was furious that some "horrible" player could suck out on him "like that". He is probably the 4th worse player I have ever seen play at $20/$40, but he was at the same table as 2 more in the top ten. This made for quite a game.
I ended up finishing the session down 11BB after roughly 75 hands, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a great game.
There were at least 2 occasions where I had top pair top kicker or better on the flop 3 way where I bet and was raised and 3 bet cold by 2 worse hands. I have to remember when I'm in games like this not to slow down when getting this kind of action from wild players.
It has been quite some time since I have been in a live game like this. Actually because of my scheduling, I'm often playing in moderately tough games with 1-3 props and 1-3 winning pros. This is a completely different beast. It is actually a lot more interesting, though I'd have to say my personal favorite is when there is a big diversity in skills and playing styles at the table.
At this point in my poker playing lifetime it is a bit of a toss up. The really good, or even moderately good games are usually not that mentally interesting. The tough but educational games have extremely poor financial returns.
Anyway, in the near future I will try to schedule my time better so that I can play in some more action based live games.
Thursday, August 18, 2005
Saturday, August 13, 2005
Good times, part deux
Well, today I took yet another shot at the small buy in ($100+$25) live no limit tournament at the local poker room. It was identical in structure and organization to last week's tourney. The prize pool (after rebuy's and addon's) was virtually identical to last week, roughly $36k. They paid the top 10 finishers (out of 150 entrants), with the top 4 finishers additionally getting an entry into a $1500+$80 tournament in October.
Again I employed a very aggressive strategy when we started getting close to the bubble. I stole repeatedly from players trying to make it to the money. I've got a much better feeling for how much of my focus should be on identifying weak players or players who are just trying to survive. Some very weak players will fold in the blinds to as little as a miniraise from a late position raiser, and it is critical to not miss these golden opportunities (small risk for decent reward..) in such a fast structure tournament. Basically, it is important to identify what is the minimum amount you need to raise to steal someone's blinds.
I believe I was the one who was all in on only 3 occasions. Once with QQ preflop with 16 players remaining and got called by both blinds (they both checked it down but the board was all rags), second with 5 players remaining with KTo when I open pushed from the SB with 5x BB when BB woke up with QQ (the door card was Q, but the flop also contained AJ, yowza!), and third when I pushed on the flop with 2 overcards and a flush draw with 4 players remaining.
I faced a tough decision when there were roughly 20 players remaining, and 2 very desperate short stacks (of roughly the same size) went all in preflop and it came to me in the big blind where I was getting 4:1 to call with T6o. So long as neither opponent had a pocket pair bigger than Ts, I believe I was getting the right price to call. Neither opponent looked comfortable with their hand. I made the call, facing pretty much the best situation I could hope for - one opponent had an underpair 55, and the other had 1 overcard K8o. I did not win this hand, but I do not regret this call. (I ran the numbers at home, and I had a 33% pot equity)
I think the risk reward was worth it, although my immediate neighbours were shocked with the call. Again, an additional benefit is that no one tried to steal my blind without a strong hand after this.
Come to think of it, the T6o hand was the only hand in the entire tournament that I called any one's all in. Even more generally, it was the only raise I called. Hmmm... Fold equity is pretty darn significant.
In the end, I finished in the top 3. At that point, we agreed on an even chop. I'm pretty happy with the deal because I think I was the short stack with somewhere around 25-27% of the chips. The chip leader had roughly low 40's% of the total chips. I believe I am a moderately better no limit tournament player than the chip leader (who is quite the gambler), however with avg chips being 210k and blinds at 10k/15k and rising in a 2 minutes, I was more than content with making an even three way split.
Since I already won a seat in last week's tournament, I was able to take the cash value of the seat. Good times...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some uncomfortable situations came up immediately following the tournament. A complete stranger came up to me out of the blue and asked me for a small "loan". I hadn't even counted my prize money yet. There had been a moderate number of railbirds - perhaps 3 dozen, watching the final action, so it was no secret how much money each person won.
I politely refused, and got the hell out of there. Just as I was getting in my car, yet another person did the same thing. Again I politely told him no, and immediately drove off. I felt so uncomfortable that I kept my eyes open on the drive home to see if anyone followed me. I admit this is excessively paranoid, but I didn't like that situation at all.
I can only imagine how much of this kind of thing the big tournament winners go through.
Again I employed a very aggressive strategy when we started getting close to the bubble. I stole repeatedly from players trying to make it to the money. I've got a much better feeling for how much of my focus should be on identifying weak players or players who are just trying to survive. Some very weak players will fold in the blinds to as little as a miniraise from a late position raiser, and it is critical to not miss these golden opportunities (small risk for decent reward..) in such a fast structure tournament. Basically, it is important to identify what is the minimum amount you need to raise to steal someone's blinds.
I believe I was the one who was all in on only 3 occasions. Once with QQ preflop with 16 players remaining and got called by both blinds (they both checked it down but the board was all rags), second with 5 players remaining with KTo when I open pushed from the SB with 5x BB when BB woke up with QQ (the door card was Q, but the flop also contained AJ, yowza!), and third when I pushed on the flop with 2 overcards and a flush draw with 4 players remaining.
I faced a tough decision when there were roughly 20 players remaining, and 2 very desperate short stacks (of roughly the same size) went all in preflop and it came to me in the big blind where I was getting 4:1 to call with T6o. So long as neither opponent had a pocket pair bigger than Ts, I believe I was getting the right price to call. Neither opponent looked comfortable with their hand. I made the call, facing pretty much the best situation I could hope for - one opponent had an underpair 55, and the other had 1 overcard K8o. I did not win this hand, but I do not regret this call. (I ran the numbers at home, and I had a 33% pot equity)
I think the risk reward was worth it, although my immediate neighbours were shocked with the call. Again, an additional benefit is that no one tried to steal my blind without a strong hand after this.
Come to think of it, the T6o hand was the only hand in the entire tournament that I called any one's all in. Even more generally, it was the only raise I called. Hmmm... Fold equity is pretty darn significant.
In the end, I finished in the top 3. At that point, we agreed on an even chop. I'm pretty happy with the deal because I think I was the short stack with somewhere around 25-27% of the chips. The chip leader had roughly low 40's% of the total chips. I believe I am a moderately better no limit tournament player than the chip leader (who is quite the gambler), however with avg chips being 210k and blinds at 10k/15k and rising in a 2 minutes, I was more than content with making an even three way split.
Since I already won a seat in last week's tournament, I was able to take the cash value of the seat. Good times...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some uncomfortable situations came up immediately following the tournament. A complete stranger came up to me out of the blue and asked me for a small "loan". I hadn't even counted my prize money yet. There had been a moderate number of railbirds - perhaps 3 dozen, watching the final action, so it was no secret how much money each person won.
I politely refused, and got the hell out of there. Just as I was getting in my car, yet another person did the same thing. Again I politely told him no, and immediately drove off. I felt so uncomfortable that I kept my eyes open on the drive home to see if anyone followed me. I admit this is excessively paranoid, but I didn't like that situation at all.
I can only imagine how much of this kind of thing the big tournament winners go through.
Thursday, August 11, 2005
Playing sets in big pots
I'm feeling rather unconfident about how to play bottom set in a "big" pot against a mixed group of opponents. I'll post a hand history, and I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.
hand #1
Live $20/$40 9 seated limit hold'em game. Players:
UTG - solid player
MP+1 - loose player, usually passive, generally only aggressive with monsters. very very freq cold caller preflop
MP+2 - fairly aggressive player, neither tight nor loose - somewhere in between
CO - aggressive but fairly intelligent player, makes "nice" laydowns
SB - hero
BB - loose chaser
- preflop: UTG open raises, fold, fold, MP+1 cold calls, MP+2 cold calls, CO cold calls, fold, SB calls with 4d4s, BB calls. (6 players, 12 small bets)
- flop: Jc7d4h, checked to MP+2 who bets, everyone calls. (6 players, 18 small bets)
- turn: Jc7d4h9c, checked to MP+2 who bets, CO calls, SB check raises, BB calls, UTG folds, MP+1 3 bets cold, MP+2 folds, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls. (3 players, 20 big bets)
- river: Jc7d4h9c5c, BB bets out, MP+1 calls in a very agitated state, SB folds. BB shows Qc7c, MP+1 frustratingly shows Ts8h. (BB wins 22 big bet pot)
I'm going to start off by saying that no matter how I play this hand, given which actual opponents had drawing hands, I will not make it to the river with the best hand. However, that is irrelevant. I just want to understand how I should optimally play this hand.
The 2+2 books preach that when a pot is big, you must do whatever it takes to maximize your chance of winning the pot. This 12 small bet pot on the flop fits their description of a big pot.
At what point in the hand should I reveal my strength? On the flop, the board is a rainbow and I generally suspect that players that called with suited connectors would tend to have hands that are higher than 7, so I'm much less worried about the 2 gapper between the 7c and the 4h. There is a 3 gapper between the Jd and 7c so in terms of draws there are only gutshots and overpairs drawing to a set. (unless I am already way behind in set over set) 2 pair is not a likely possibility on this board except for BB. Actually, since BB can have any 2 cards, he may also have the low straight draw on the flop.
With 5 opponents on the flop, I have 2 choices: i) check raise to try and knock out the runner runner draws, ii) slow play the flop hoping for a good turn card - the best cards obviously giving me quads or a full house (7 cards), but I also like a 2, Q, K, A (especially when they don't put a flush draw on board). 3 or 5 are somewhat okay, but I will be somewhat conservative if someone shows a lot of strength when they hit.
Given what I actually did on the flop, I'm comfortable with how I played the turn. The only thing I reconsidered was whether or not to cap it after MP+1 3 bets cold. The only reason to do this is to make BB pay more for his obvious draw - but he will always call 2 more here. Capping can't be right on the turn given my read on MP+1's style - I don't believe he makes this move without a better hand than mine.
Once again, my primary question is when do I show strength in this hand?
If there were 7 or 8 opponents in the hand, how does this affect my decision? I think I would be more inclined to check raise the flop since there are likely to be more runner runner draws.
At what number (and types) of opponents is it safe to slow play this flop?
hand #1
Live $20/$40 9 seated limit hold'em game. Players:
UTG - solid player
MP+1 - loose player, usually passive, generally only aggressive with monsters. very very freq cold caller preflop
MP+2 - fairly aggressive player, neither tight nor loose - somewhere in between
CO - aggressive but fairly intelligent player, makes "nice" laydowns
SB - hero
BB - loose chaser
- preflop: UTG open raises, fold, fold, MP+1 cold calls, MP+2 cold calls, CO cold calls, fold, SB calls with 4d4s, BB calls. (6 players, 12 small bets)
- flop: Jc7d4h, checked to MP+2 who bets, everyone calls. (6 players, 18 small bets)
- turn: Jc7d4h9c, checked to MP+2 who bets, CO calls, SB check raises, BB calls, UTG folds, MP+1 3 bets cold, MP+2 folds, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls. (3 players, 20 big bets)
- river: Jc7d4h9c5c, BB bets out, MP+1 calls in a very agitated state, SB folds. BB shows Qc7c, MP+1 frustratingly shows Ts8h. (BB wins 22 big bet pot)
I'm going to start off by saying that no matter how I play this hand, given which actual opponents had drawing hands, I will not make it to the river with the best hand. However, that is irrelevant. I just want to understand how I should optimally play this hand.
The 2+2 books preach that when a pot is big, you must do whatever it takes to maximize your chance of winning the pot. This 12 small bet pot on the flop fits their description of a big pot.
At what point in the hand should I reveal my strength? On the flop, the board is a rainbow and I generally suspect that players that called with suited connectors would tend to have hands that are higher than 7, so I'm much less worried about the 2 gapper between the 7c and the 4h. There is a 3 gapper between the Jd and 7c so in terms of draws there are only gutshots and overpairs drawing to a set. (unless I am already way behind in set over set) 2 pair is not a likely possibility on this board except for BB. Actually, since BB can have any 2 cards, he may also have the low straight draw on the flop.
With 5 opponents on the flop, I have 2 choices: i) check raise to try and knock out the runner runner draws, ii) slow play the flop hoping for a good turn card - the best cards obviously giving me quads or a full house (7 cards), but I also like a 2, Q, K, A (especially when they don't put a flush draw on board). 3 or 5 are somewhat okay, but I will be somewhat conservative if someone shows a lot of strength when they hit.
Given what I actually did on the flop, I'm comfortable with how I played the turn. The only thing I reconsidered was whether or not to cap it after MP+1 3 bets cold. The only reason to do this is to make BB pay more for his obvious draw - but he will always call 2 more here. Capping can't be right on the turn given my read on MP+1's style - I don't believe he makes this move without a better hand than mine.
Once again, my primary question is when do I show strength in this hand?
If there were 7 or 8 opponents in the hand, how does this affect my decision? I think I would be more inclined to check raise the flop since there are likely to be more runner runner draws.
At what number (and types) of opponents is it safe to slow play this flop?
Wednesday, August 10, 2005
Good intentions, but bad behavior?
I've got another Vegas trip coming up in about 2 weeks, and I feel the need to pad up my bankroll a little more. A substantial percentage of my poker time lately has been focused on live play, and while that is interesting/enlightening/fun/educational/etc.., it is very inefficient timewise at making money from a risk/reward point of view.
I decided to multitable $3/$6 at Party and Euro simultaneously to clear the latest Party bonus and also get more rakeback in my Euro account. This is so much more efficient and reliable than playing live $20/$40. I actually have very little money in my online accounts, so it would actually be unwise to play multitable $5/$10, let alone $10/$20 or $15/$30.
My online bankroll is very borderline now. If I can put in a few good sessions at $3/$6 this week, I'll have a reasonable online bankroll for $5/$10 for next week. I'd like to set a goal for earning $1800 from online ring games before going to Vegas. That will give my overall poker bankroll another 30 big bets of cushion to play $30/$60 at the Bellagio.
Results-wise, tonight's $3/$6 session was reasonable. 3 hours with +5BB/100 hands, plus the bonus and rakeback.
However, my big mistake was to start this session while not well rested/mentally prepared. When multitabling to that degree, you take a lot of ridiculous beats. Without thinking, I started getting upset. Over time I started muttering and swearing under my breath. My wife was in the same room working on her laptop, and this is just the kind of thing that really disheartens her to see.
There was absolutely no reason for me to get upset while playing online limit ring games. It serves no useful purpose. Whenever this kind of thing happens, I always apologize to my wife later. However, I'm sure from her point of view, my bad behavior just seems to happen over and over and over again. I say I'm sorry, but practically the next time she sees me playing online, I'm back at it again - groaning, moaning, tsking, shaking my head...
My wife grants me a wide degree of freedom to pursue my poker hobby, and I simply must do better. I owe that much to the both of us.
Driving to the bricks and mortar poker room gives me a few minutes to get into the right mindset. I have to make it a habit to spend a minute or two getting ready before jumping into any online session.....
I decided to multitable $3/$6 at Party and Euro simultaneously to clear the latest Party bonus and also get more rakeback in my Euro account. This is so much more efficient and reliable than playing live $20/$40. I actually have very little money in my online accounts, so it would actually be unwise to play multitable $5/$10, let alone $10/$20 or $15/$30.
My online bankroll is very borderline now. If I can put in a few good sessions at $3/$6 this week, I'll have a reasonable online bankroll for $5/$10 for next week. I'd like to set a goal for earning $1800 from online ring games before going to Vegas. That will give my overall poker bankroll another 30 big bets of cushion to play $30/$60 at the Bellagio.
Results-wise, tonight's $3/$6 session was reasonable. 3 hours with +5BB/100 hands, plus the bonus and rakeback.
However, my big mistake was to start this session while not well rested/mentally prepared. When multitabling to that degree, you take a lot of ridiculous beats. Without thinking, I started getting upset. Over time I started muttering and swearing under my breath. My wife was in the same room working on her laptop, and this is just the kind of thing that really disheartens her to see.
There was absolutely no reason for me to get upset while playing online limit ring games. It serves no useful purpose. Whenever this kind of thing happens, I always apologize to my wife later. However, I'm sure from her point of view, my bad behavior just seems to happen over and over and over again. I say I'm sorry, but practically the next time she sees me playing online, I'm back at it again - groaning, moaning, tsking, shaking my head...
My wife grants me a wide degree of freedom to pursue my poker hobby, and I simply must do better. I owe that much to the both of us.
Driving to the bricks and mortar poker room gives me a few minutes to get into the right mindset. I have to make it a habit to spend a minute or two getting ready before jumping into any online session.....
Tuesday, August 09, 2005
"Hello brain, is anyone home?"
I'm finding that I am making a lot less obvious mistakes in my live limit game these days. Realistically, I'm surely making numerous mistakes in every session, but my opponents are not so kind as to give free feedback!
My main concern is that my learning curve is slowing down rapidly. I found that during my first 20 session hours at $20/$40, I would be picking up many new things from every session. The next 20, probably I would have one discovery or insight per session. Lately, I've been playing mostly on autopilot.
I'd like to keep learning, and I'm unsure of the best way to do this. I always try to discuss interesting hands with other players that I respect.
I think this might also be a good time to go back and re-read some books. Perhaps The Psychology of Poker, Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players, The Theory of Poker, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, etc...
My main concern is that my learning curve is slowing down rapidly. I found that during my first 20 session hours at $20/$40, I would be picking up many new things from every session. The next 20, probably I would have one discovery or insight per session. Lately, I've been playing mostly on autopilot.
I'd like to keep learning, and I'm unsure of the best way to do this. I always try to discuss interesting hands with other players that I respect.
I think this might also be a good time to go back and re-read some books. Perhaps The Psychology of Poker, Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players, The Theory of Poker, Caro's Book of Poker Tells, etc...
Sunday, August 07, 2005
Good times
I am extremely pleased with the way I have been running in the small buy in live hold'em tournaments at the local poker room.
Today I finished 4th/149 in the $100+25 no limit rebuy tournament which paid $1900 + a $1500+80 seat into another no limit tournament in a couple of months. 1st was $10k + the seat, and while I'm disappointed not to go all the way, I'm still pleased with 4th.
I believe that I was involved in 3 coin flips in this tournament where I had the pocket pair all 3 times. I was lucky enough to win all 3 (although I was the one who was all in only on 1 occasion)
A while back I commented to my wife how effective some players are by just being very aggressive in NL tournaments, forcing other players to back down. She asked me, "Why can't everyone just do that?"
A funny thing happened during the tournament that had an effect on how I played. At roughly the 1.5 hour mark into the tournament, I received a cell phone call from my VP. He told me there was some incident at work, and that he needed me to come in and help with the investigation. He did say that currently things were stable, and mostly just an explaination needed to be generated. I told him, I would try to get to the office in around an hour and a half.
He said that one or two hours wasn't a big deal, but he finished with saying that he would be in the office for the next 6-7 hours, so he would be there when I got in. (Great...)
I based this estimation on my expected median finish time. I had been assuming, as in previous weeks, that the top 18 players would be getting paid. I figured that the 3 hour mark would be very close to the bubble. Thus, if I reached the money, then I would be a little late to get to the office. The higher I placed in the money, the later I would be.
There was a change in the payout structure this time though where only the top 10 were being paid out, and the top 4 finishers also received seats into a $1500+80 NL tournament. This made the payout considerably more top heavy than usual.
This had a moderate effect on my strategy. I had no fear on going broke, and I was able to push a lot harder. I would guesstimate that I was more aggressive on 8-10 hands during the remainder of the tournament than I normally would have, and from these hands I took in around 20-25 big blinds. It was mostly from stealing blinds, but also from a couple of all in calls from loose or very desperate players.
Interestingly, during the 5 hours or roughly 180 hands that I played, I never showed down a hand where I was not the favorite. When I was pure bluffing, I never got called. This has got to be mostly luck. However, I certainly did take advantage of people near the bubble. I made it quite clear to the people at my table that I was not afraid to get involved. I would open push from MP+1 or later, with my 6-8BB slightly above average stack and players with similar or slightly larger stacks would grumble and throw away hands like 88, AQ since we were close to the bubble.
Stealing the blinds with a 6-8BB slightly above average stack is huge. And as a additional benefit, my opponents were afraid to attack my blind. Twice in one 20 minute level, everyone folded to my big blind. I was thrilled with my table image.
During the entire tournament I was only all in twice.
At the 2 hour mark, I had the following hand:
- preflop: an early position player who always makes his bets proportional to the strength of his hand limps, a very very weak player to my immediate right limps in MP+1, I have a slightly below average stack of 18 big blinds and find 5c5s and I push. Button calls my all in with AQo and everyone else folds. My hand holds up.
Certainly I was gambling with this hand, but my reasons for pushing were:
- I really do want to have an above average stack, and I will not pass on any opportunity to push when I'm likely to have the best hand.
- EP limp is dead money
- weak player is capable of laying down very good hands preflop. In this case, weak player laid down AKo.
- 3 of the 4 people behind me are experienced tournament players who would won't get involved without a big hand.
- the weak player has only shown down monster hands like KK or QQ, and in some ways weak player protected my hand. Weak player was on my immediate right, and while I was willing to gamble that WP wouldn't call, everyone else at the table had to worry that either I or WP had a big hand.
Button was a inexperienced gambler who did pick up a hand, but I was lucky enough to survive the coin flip.
A few months ago, I never would have made this play.
The only other time I was all in was on my last hand. Avg chips was ~160k. I had 70k in the BB and was the short stack. 2nd short stack was UTG with about 90k. Button and SB had roughly the same chips. Blinds are 10k, 15k. UTG is a loose gambler.
- preflop: UTG pushes, folded to me, I find KQo. I'd prefer that the 3rd chip stack get involved with someone else, but I'm getting 1.7:1 on my money. UTG is fairly loose, and will likely push fairly often, but I need to consider if my stack can outlast his gambling it up. If I fold here and also on in my SB, I will be down to 4.5BB which is very likely to be called when I do push, so I think this is the place to take a stand. I call. UTG shows K9o.
- postflop: K9424
This hand cost me roughly $2000. Uggg.
I later find out that UTG finishes in 3rd. Big surprise... Waah, waah! That's all you can do....
(I ended up arriving at work 3.5 hours after my VP called me, but the work stuff got resolved in a reasonable period of time after arriving so no damage done, I guess.)
Today I finished 4th/149 in the $100+25 no limit rebuy tournament which paid $1900 + a $1500+80 seat into another no limit tournament in a couple of months. 1st was $10k + the seat, and while I'm disappointed not to go all the way, I'm still pleased with 4th.
I believe that I was involved in 3 coin flips in this tournament where I had the pocket pair all 3 times. I was lucky enough to win all 3 (although I was the one who was all in only on 1 occasion)
A while back I commented to my wife how effective some players are by just being very aggressive in NL tournaments, forcing other players to back down. She asked me, "Why can't everyone just do that?"
A funny thing happened during the tournament that had an effect on how I played. At roughly the 1.5 hour mark into the tournament, I received a cell phone call from my VP. He told me there was some incident at work, and that he needed me to come in and help with the investigation. He did say that currently things were stable, and mostly just an explaination needed to be generated. I told him, I would try to get to the office in around an hour and a half.
He said that one or two hours wasn't a big deal, but he finished with saying that he would be in the office for the next 6-7 hours, so he would be there when I got in. (Great...)
I based this estimation on my expected median finish time. I had been assuming, as in previous weeks, that the top 18 players would be getting paid. I figured that the 3 hour mark would be very close to the bubble. Thus, if I reached the money, then I would be a little late to get to the office. The higher I placed in the money, the later I would be.
There was a change in the payout structure this time though where only the top 10 were being paid out, and the top 4 finishers also received seats into a $1500+80 NL tournament. This made the payout considerably more top heavy than usual.
This had a moderate effect on my strategy. I had no fear on going broke, and I was able to push a lot harder. I would guesstimate that I was more aggressive on 8-10 hands during the remainder of the tournament than I normally would have, and from these hands I took in around 20-25 big blinds. It was mostly from stealing blinds, but also from a couple of all in calls from loose or very desperate players.
Interestingly, during the 5 hours or roughly 180 hands that I played, I never showed down a hand where I was not the favorite. When I was pure bluffing, I never got called. This has got to be mostly luck. However, I certainly did take advantage of people near the bubble. I made it quite clear to the people at my table that I was not afraid to get involved. I would open push from MP+1 or later, with my 6-8BB slightly above average stack and players with similar or slightly larger stacks would grumble and throw away hands like 88, AQ since we were close to the bubble.
Stealing the blinds with a 6-8BB slightly above average stack is huge. And as a additional benefit, my opponents were afraid to attack my blind. Twice in one 20 minute level, everyone folded to my big blind. I was thrilled with my table image.
During the entire tournament I was only all in twice.
At the 2 hour mark, I had the following hand:
- preflop: an early position player who always makes his bets proportional to the strength of his hand limps, a very very weak player to my immediate right limps in MP+1, I have a slightly below average stack of 18 big blinds and find 5c5s and I push. Button calls my all in with AQo and everyone else folds. My hand holds up.
Certainly I was gambling with this hand, but my reasons for pushing were:
- I really do want to have an above average stack, and I will not pass on any opportunity to push when I'm likely to have the best hand.
- EP limp is dead money
- weak player is capable of laying down very good hands preflop. In this case, weak player laid down AKo.
- 3 of the 4 people behind me are experienced tournament players who would won't get involved without a big hand.
- the weak player has only shown down monster hands like KK or QQ, and in some ways weak player protected my hand. Weak player was on my immediate right, and while I was willing to gamble that WP wouldn't call, everyone else at the table had to worry that either I or WP had a big hand.
Button was a inexperienced gambler who did pick up a hand, but I was lucky enough to survive the coin flip.
A few months ago, I never would have made this play.
The only other time I was all in was on my last hand. Avg chips was ~160k. I had 70k in the BB and was the short stack. 2nd short stack was UTG with about 90k. Button and SB had roughly the same chips. Blinds are 10k, 15k. UTG is a loose gambler.
- preflop: UTG pushes, folded to me, I find KQo. I'd prefer that the 3rd chip stack get involved with someone else, but I'm getting 1.7:1 on my money. UTG is fairly loose, and will likely push fairly often, but I need to consider if my stack can outlast his gambling it up. If I fold here and also on in my SB, I will be down to 4.5BB which is very likely to be called when I do push, so I think this is the place to take a stand. I call. UTG shows K9o.
- postflop: K9424
This hand cost me roughly $2000. Uggg.
I later find out that UTG finishes in 3rd. Big surprise... Waah, waah! That's all you can do....
(I ended up arriving at work 3.5 hours after my VP called me, but the work stuff got resolved in a reasonable period of time after arriving so no damage done, I guess.)
Friday, August 05, 2005
Poker is gambling
It is funny when I hear a "good" poker player saying "Poker isn't gambling". The speaker is implying that since there is skill involved in poker, then it is not gambling.
I would certainly agree that there are skills that people can use to significantly improve their results to maximize their wins and minimize their loses. However, the outcome of any given hand has a great deal of uncertainty that is substantially impacted by factors that are out of control of the players (e.g. the distribution of cards, the suit and rank of the next card to come off the deck, etc).
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I'll post a couple of hands that I played today in a live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. I know I was gambling in these hands. In the first hand I gambled to win a bigger pot, and in the second hand I gambled to maximize my chance of winning the pot. My decisions in these hands are debatable at best and perhaps quite poor. I want to write about them to generate some thoughts about them.
Hand #1 was my 2nd hand at this table, and Hand #2 was less than 30 minutes later. It is a 9 seated $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
hand #1
MP+1 is an unknown, but looks like a loose gambling player from his presentation. BB is a semi-loose semi-aggressive player who just folded a gutshot draw on the turn of the previous hand which hit on the river (His pot odds had been ~4.5:1 on the turn, and the draw was a draw to the nuts.) He had agonized for 15 seconds before folding and was a tad steamed when the card hit.
- preflop: folded to MP+1 who raises, folded to me in the SB, I look down and find AhAd, and I call only, BB calls. (3 players, 6 small bets)
- flop: QdThTs, blinds check. MP+1 bets, I check raise, BB smooth calls, MP+1 calls (3 players, 12 small bets)
- turn: QdThTs4d, I check, BB bets, MP+1 calls, I insta fold (2 players, 8 big bets)
- river: QdThTs4d6c, BB bets, MP+1 calls, BB shows QsTc, MP+1 folds. (final pot: 10 big bets)
In hand #1, I was right in the borderline position where it is debatable for me whether or not to 3 bet preflop. If I was heads up in the big blind I will almost always call only. If I was on the button or earlier I would always reraise. Definitely the safe play is to reraise. If the BB folds preflop, then I will likely win 4.5 big bets in the hand vs. losing 2 big bets. If the BB calls the reraise, I will likely lose 5 big bets.
Based on my later chats with BB and observing his play, I believe he folds QTo about 70% of the time to a reraise, but this folding % might be less than 25% if he was on tilt from missing out on the river suckout on his immediately preceeding hand.
I was very worried when I saw the flop, and specifically check raised to test both players for a T. To be fair, despite the unlucky flop, I was actually very lucky that it was so apparent that I was outflopped. If the flop had come 2cQdTh, I would likely have lost 4.5-5.5 big bets.
hand #2
UTG is a semi-loose semi-aggressive player, MP and MP+1 are passive, CO is semi-loose aggressive, Button and SB are loose aggressive,
- UTG calls, fold, MP calls, MP+1 calls, fold, CO calls, button calls, SB completes, I find KhKd in the BB and I check (7 players, 7 small bets)
- flop: 3c7h9h, checked around to the button who bets, SB folds, I call, UTG folds, MP calls, MP+1 calls, CO folds (4 players, 11 small bets)
- turn: 3c7h9hQs, checked around to the button who bets, I check raise, MP says I have 39 and folds, MP+1 folds, button flashes a 7 and folds. (final pot: 8.5 big bets)
In hand #2, I'm 99% sure I should have raised preflop to get those extra small bets from my 3-5 opponents who will likely completely miss the flop. The only 2 advantages I can see from me checking preflop is 1) to keep the pot small and 2) make the minimum investment if an A flops
For 1) it appears that the flop at least partially hit 3 of my opponents, and all 3 (or perhaps more) opponents would likely have seen the river with me if I had raised preflop (probably unless I was to again check/call the flop and check/raise the turn, but this is much, much less likely to happen if I had raised preflop) My guess is that my pot equity is 65-75% on the turn. Based on the situation, I'm certain that neither opponent had an A high flush draw (I don't mention the K because I have it). One thing I wonder is what percentage of opponents would fold a T high or lower flush draw on the turn getting 4.1:1? What percentage would fold a T high or lower flush draw and a pair?
For 2) If an A flops and there is a bet and call, can I continue in the hand? Typically in a very multiway hand, I will fold KK to a bet on an A high flop especially if there are multiple draws on the board. I might call one bet if I have a back door nut flush draw since 11 cards would improve my hand)
My flop play is somewhat debatable, but I would almost always make the same play again. I think that a flop check raise does not protect my hand on the flop and gives me no protection on the turn.
Part of what influenced me to maximize my chance to win hand #2 (instead of trying to win a big pot) that over the preceeding 2 session hours of $20/$40 play I had won very few pots, perhaps 3, plus the loss of hand #1 (although ironically in one hand raising preflop increases my chance of winning the pot while in the other hand raising preflop decreases my chances.). I should never let the immediate history affect my play like this.
If I had to do it over again, I would play hand #2 for a big pot, and see if my hand can hold up. Poker IS gambling.
I would certainly agree that there are skills that people can use to significantly improve their results to maximize their wins and minimize their loses. However, the outcome of any given hand has a great deal of uncertainty that is substantially impacted by factors that are out of control of the players (e.g. the distribution of cards, the suit and rank of the next card to come off the deck, etc).
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I'll post a couple of hands that I played today in a live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. I know I was gambling in these hands. In the first hand I gambled to win a bigger pot, and in the second hand I gambled to maximize my chance of winning the pot. My decisions in these hands are debatable at best and perhaps quite poor. I want to write about them to generate some thoughts about them.
Hand #1 was my 2nd hand at this table, and Hand #2 was less than 30 minutes later. It is a 9 seated $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
hand #1
MP+1 is an unknown, but looks like a loose gambling player from his presentation. BB is a semi-loose semi-aggressive player who just folded a gutshot draw on the turn of the previous hand which hit on the river (His pot odds had been ~4.5:1 on the turn, and the draw was a draw to the nuts.) He had agonized for 15 seconds before folding and was a tad steamed when the card hit.
- preflop: folded to MP+1 who raises, folded to me in the SB, I look down and find AhAd, and I call only, BB calls. (3 players, 6 small bets)
- flop: QdThTs, blinds check. MP+1 bets, I check raise, BB smooth calls, MP+1 calls (3 players, 12 small bets)
- turn: QdThTs4d, I check, BB bets, MP+1 calls, I insta fold (2 players, 8 big bets)
- river: QdThTs4d6c, BB bets, MP+1 calls, BB shows QsTc, MP+1 folds. (final pot: 10 big bets)
In hand #1, I was right in the borderline position where it is debatable for me whether or not to 3 bet preflop. If I was heads up in the big blind I will almost always call only. If I was on the button or earlier I would always reraise. Definitely the safe play is to reraise. If the BB folds preflop, then I will likely win 4.5 big bets in the hand vs. losing 2 big bets. If the BB calls the reraise, I will likely lose 5 big bets.
Based on my later chats with BB and observing his play, I believe he folds QTo about 70% of the time to a reraise, but this folding % might be less than 25% if he was on tilt from missing out on the river suckout on his immediately preceeding hand.
I was very worried when I saw the flop, and specifically check raised to test both players for a T. To be fair, despite the unlucky flop, I was actually very lucky that it was so apparent that I was outflopped. If the flop had come 2cQdTh, I would likely have lost 4.5-5.5 big bets.
hand #2
UTG is a semi-loose semi-aggressive player, MP and MP+1 are passive, CO is semi-loose aggressive, Button and SB are loose aggressive,
- UTG calls, fold, MP calls, MP+1 calls, fold, CO calls, button calls, SB completes, I find KhKd in the BB and I check (7 players, 7 small bets)
- flop: 3c7h9h, checked around to the button who bets, SB folds, I call, UTG folds, MP calls, MP+1 calls, CO folds (4 players, 11 small bets)
- turn: 3c7h9hQs, checked around to the button who bets, I check raise, MP says I have 39 and folds, MP+1 folds, button flashes a 7 and folds. (final pot: 8.5 big bets)
In hand #2, I'm 99% sure I should have raised preflop to get those extra small bets from my 3-5 opponents who will likely completely miss the flop. The only 2 advantages I can see from me checking preflop is 1) to keep the pot small and 2) make the minimum investment if an A flops
For 1) it appears that the flop at least partially hit 3 of my opponents, and all 3 (or perhaps more) opponents would likely have seen the river with me if I had raised preflop (probably unless I was to again check/call the flop and check/raise the turn, but this is much, much less likely to happen if I had raised preflop) My guess is that my pot equity is 65-75% on the turn. Based on the situation, I'm certain that neither opponent had an A high flush draw (I don't mention the K because I have it). One thing I wonder is what percentage of opponents would fold a T high or lower flush draw on the turn getting 4.1:1? What percentage would fold a T high or lower flush draw and a pair?
For 2) If an A flops and there is a bet and call, can I continue in the hand? Typically in a very multiway hand, I will fold KK to a bet on an A high flop especially if there are multiple draws on the board. I might call one bet if I have a back door nut flush draw since 11 cards would improve my hand)
My flop play is somewhat debatable, but I would almost always make the same play again. I think that a flop check raise does not protect my hand on the flop and gives me no protection on the turn.
Part of what influenced me to maximize my chance to win hand #2 (instead of trying to win a big pot) that over the preceeding 2 session hours of $20/$40 play I had won very few pots, perhaps 3, plus the loss of hand #1 (although ironically in one hand raising preflop increases my chance of winning the pot while in the other hand raising preflop decreases my chances.). I should never let the immediate history affect my play like this.
If I had to do it over again, I would play hand #2 for a big pot, and see if my hand can hold up. Poker IS gambling.
Thursday, August 04, 2005
Lotsa loose games
Lately in my live play, I have been playing in a lot of very loose games. This is mostly at $6/$12 and $8/$16 (which lately have been even looser than my past experience), but even at $20/$40. In fact all games in my last 15-20 session hours have been noticeably loose.
If you play in loose games, you have to be prepared to take bad beats. Pots will be large to gigantic, and expect to take very large swings in your chip stack. In these types of games, you will also be able to "correctly" put a bad beat on your opponents, though likely not as often as you will receive bad beats.
Also expect to see some ridiculous calls on the river where the bettor shows a hand like Q high or J high, or bottom pair of deuces and wins a pot larger than 10BB.
The hands that I had a lot of trouble with lately are the high mid pairs 99, TT and the low premium pairs JJ, QQ.
The problem that I have with the high mid pairs usually comes from the following slightly unusual situation of a loose game:
- It is folded to me in MP+1, MP+2, or the CO and I find 99 or TT (the unusual part is that so many people folded in front of me, but it has been happening about once every session on average), I raise and everyone behind me calls. I prefer to limp with anything less than a premium pair in a loose game, but since there are only 3-5 people behind me, I almost always tend to raise to cut down the field. However, in these loose games a single raise has very little impact; the players only consider their starting cards before deciding whether or not they want to see a flop.
- Flop: 1 overcard, 2 lower connected cards and a flush draw is a very frequent flop to get in this situation. This is a very difficult hand to win without improving to a set. I will still often put in a bet on this flop. Depending on the bettor, I may raise this flop, but will not put any more into the pot unless I improve (which pretty much means hitting a 2 outer) (unless I can get it headsup with a rare weak or incredibly loose opponent ). I will often fold to a single bet, and almost always to a flop raise in front of me.
The problem with the low premium pair typical comes from the following type of situation.
- I raise preflop with JJ or QQ, and see the flop with 5 or 6 opponents. The difficult situation typically seems to be when I flop an overpair, but the 3 board cards are fairly coordinated, and despite whatever action happens on the flop, the turn will often be seen by 4-5 people. When an A or K comes on the turn with 2 flush draws, I really start to hate my hand. On the river, if there is 1 overcard, a 3 flush and/or 3 to a straight, it is not a welcome sight to see one of my opponents betting out for the first time in the hand. I will usually still call if I don't expect anyone else to. If there is already a caller, I will usually fold unless the caller is ridiculously loose and/or the bettor is very loose or a very frequent bluffer. I probably would not cold call a raise without stupendous pot odds. (fortunately I haven't had to make this decision lately)
From these two types of scenarios, I will typically lose 2.5-3.5 big bets. It is quite common to ~not~ flop a set a dozen times in a row, so some sessions feel truly awful if you don't win any big pots from other situations. Even if this only happens a couple of times in an hour, if you don't win any pots during that time, it is easy to be down 10-15BB (after taking and/or defending your blinds)
These loose games that have 5-7 people seeing a flop for 1 or 2 bets seems to favor suited connectors (0 or 1 gappers) and any pocket pair. Then give up on the flop without improvement.
I find these types of games are only fun because the people tend to be cheerful, chatty and/or excited, and it is actually exciting to see monster pots. Strategy is very simple, and it doesn't take much thought to play.
Big unsuited A's like ATo, AJo and often even AQo are not very good hands. You must hit the flop, and often you must hit it very hard or improve on the later streets to win. AJo is a particularly lousy hand to raise with in these games. I almost always throw it away in early position in a loose game where I expect to see the flop with 5-6 players no matter what the preflop action is.
In a loose game I much rather have 78s than AJo. (in games where there will often be 3-5 people that see the river)
Over long session hours, these are easy games to beat. When you make a few monster hands and win huge pots, the game seems incredibly easy. Other times, it seems like an eternity since the last time you won a pot. It is important to maintain good starting hand selection, and not go on tilt (and start raising with hands like ATo when you know you will, at least, be called 4-5 ways to the flop).
If you play in loose games, you have to be prepared to take bad beats. Pots will be large to gigantic, and expect to take very large swings in your chip stack. In these types of games, you will also be able to "correctly" put a bad beat on your opponents, though likely not as often as you will receive bad beats.
Also expect to see some ridiculous calls on the river where the bettor shows a hand like Q high or J high, or bottom pair of deuces and wins a pot larger than 10BB.
The hands that I had a lot of trouble with lately are the high mid pairs 99, TT and the low premium pairs JJ, QQ.
The problem that I have with the high mid pairs usually comes from the following slightly unusual situation of a loose game:
- It is folded to me in MP+1, MP+2, or the CO and I find 99 or TT (the unusual part is that so many people folded in front of me, but it has been happening about once every session on average), I raise and everyone behind me calls. I prefer to limp with anything less than a premium pair in a loose game, but since there are only 3-5 people behind me, I almost always tend to raise to cut down the field. However, in these loose games a single raise has very little impact; the players only consider their starting cards before deciding whether or not they want to see a flop.
- Flop: 1 overcard, 2 lower connected cards and a flush draw is a very frequent flop to get in this situation. This is a very difficult hand to win without improving to a set. I will still often put in a bet on this flop. Depending on the bettor, I may raise this flop, but will not put any more into the pot unless I improve (which pretty much means hitting a 2 outer) (unless I can get it headsup with a rare weak or incredibly loose opponent ). I will often fold to a single bet, and almost always to a flop raise in front of me.
The problem with the low premium pair typical comes from the following type of situation.
- I raise preflop with JJ or QQ, and see the flop with 5 or 6 opponents. The difficult situation typically seems to be when I flop an overpair, but the 3 board cards are fairly coordinated, and despite whatever action happens on the flop, the turn will often be seen by 4-5 people. When an A or K comes on the turn with 2 flush draws, I really start to hate my hand. On the river, if there is 1 overcard, a 3 flush and/or 3 to a straight, it is not a welcome sight to see one of my opponents betting out for the first time in the hand. I will usually still call if I don't expect anyone else to. If there is already a caller, I will usually fold unless the caller is ridiculously loose and/or the bettor is very loose or a very frequent bluffer. I probably would not cold call a raise without stupendous pot odds. (fortunately I haven't had to make this decision lately)
From these two types of scenarios, I will typically lose 2.5-3.5 big bets. It is quite common to ~not~ flop a set a dozen times in a row, so some sessions feel truly awful if you don't win any big pots from other situations. Even if this only happens a couple of times in an hour, if you don't win any pots during that time, it is easy to be down 10-15BB (after taking and/or defending your blinds)
These loose games that have 5-7 people seeing a flop for 1 or 2 bets seems to favor suited connectors (0 or 1 gappers) and any pocket pair. Then give up on the flop without improvement.
I find these types of games are only fun because the people tend to be cheerful, chatty and/or excited, and it is actually exciting to see monster pots. Strategy is very simple, and it doesn't take much thought to play.
Big unsuited A's like ATo, AJo and often even AQo are not very good hands. You must hit the flop, and often you must hit it very hard or improve on the later streets to win. AJo is a particularly lousy hand to raise with in these games. I almost always throw it away in early position in a loose game where I expect to see the flop with 5-6 players no matter what the preflop action is.
In a loose game I much rather have 78s than AJo. (in games where there will often be 3-5 people that see the river)
Over long session hours, these are easy games to beat. When you make a few monster hands and win huge pots, the game seems incredibly easy. Other times, it seems like an eternity since the last time you won a pot. It is important to maintain good starting hand selection, and not go on tilt (and start raising with hands like ATo when you know you will, at least, be called 4-5 ways to the flop).
Monday, August 01, 2005
Don't play tired
I decided to take a shot at a midnight live no limit tourney. My major mistake was to enter this tournament while I was rather tired.
I made numerous questionable decisions that I chalk up to fatigue. I folded the best hand against a player that I believe would only have been bluffing in a particular situation, I gave free cards, I pushed all in vs a late position limper (trapper), etc...
However, I managed to double up 4 or 5 times (there is an incredible degree of luck in this very fast structure tournament). In the end, I finished a little short of the money in a situation where I called an all-in reraise against the chip leader. My chip stack would have been only a little below average if I had folded to his reraise, and I should have picked a better spot to take a stand.
This is just a reminder to myself not to play tired. Silly silly silly.
I made numerous questionable decisions that I chalk up to fatigue. I folded the best hand against a player that I believe would only have been bluffing in a particular situation, I gave free cards, I pushed all in vs a late position limper (trapper), etc...
However, I managed to double up 4 or 5 times (there is an incredible degree of luck in this very fast structure tournament). In the end, I finished a little short of the money in a situation where I called an all-in reraise against the chip leader. My chip stack would have been only a little below average if I had folded to his reraise, and I should have picked a better spot to take a stand.
This is just a reminder to myself not to play tired. Silly silly silly.
Sunday, July 31, 2005
Some Limit Hold'em Tournament situations
I've been having so much fun playing tournaments, I ran down this morning to play in a live $60 + $10 limit hold'em tournament with 1 $60 rebuy at the local poker room. There were about 110 entrants, and the prize pool was roughly $13k where they paid 18 spots.
I played reasonably within the limits of the situations I faced except for 1 hand where I made a continuation bet on the river with A, Q high after missing both my nut flush draw and gutshot where my opponent was very likely to call (which he did). It was a very bad bet on my part; I should have just checked behind him on the river.
I took a brutal 1 outer with about 40 players remaining where the pot had roughly 3.5% of all tournament chips, to leave me with just a chip and a chair. This was not one of those all in preflop situations, but 2 big stacks going at it preflop, on the flop, and on the turn. Another person at the table later told me that my opponent always gambles with very risky hands. I'm was thrilled with everything about that hand except the end result.
Amazingly, I staged a comeback to have slightly above average chips with about 22 players remaining. Certainly I was lucky to make the comeback, but I believe that the decisions I made during several of those hands maximized my chance for a comeback.
The structure of this tournament is brutally fast though.
Once we reached the money, an interesting situation came up. I currently believe I made the right decision, but I'll post this hand for comments.
hand #1
Just in the money, ~16 players remain, 8 seated, avg chips ~20k. Blinds are $3/$6k. I have $13k on the button. CO has $4k, SB and BB have me covered, CO is a semi-solid player, SB is a very straightforward player, I have no experience with the BB player.
- preflop: folded to CO who pushes for $4k. I look down and find QJo.
What's my play?
I am 100% certain CO has me beat, but he has a huge range of hands that I believe I have 40%-50% pot equity if I can get him headsup. If I can get the blinds to fold I will only be risking $2k to win $13k. However, probably any hand that BB will call with will at best be a coin flip for me, and more likely he will have me dominated.
If I gamble and win, I'll have $26k, and have some breathing room or more likely the comfort to try to steal the blinds a couple of times. I don't care about moving up in the money until there are around 6 people remaining.
In the actual hand, I elected to push all in. The blinds folded. CO showed A9o and his hand held up.
I played reasonably within the limits of the situations I faced except for 1 hand where I made a continuation bet on the river with A, Q high after missing both my nut flush draw and gutshot where my opponent was very likely to call (which he did). It was a very bad bet on my part; I should have just checked behind him on the river.
I took a brutal 1 outer with about 40 players remaining where the pot had roughly 3.5% of all tournament chips, to leave me with just a chip and a chair. This was not one of those all in preflop situations, but 2 big stacks going at it preflop, on the flop, and on the turn. Another person at the table later told me that my opponent always gambles with very risky hands. I'm was thrilled with everything about that hand except the end result.
Amazingly, I staged a comeback to have slightly above average chips with about 22 players remaining. Certainly I was lucky to make the comeback, but I believe that the decisions I made during several of those hands maximized my chance for a comeback.
The structure of this tournament is brutally fast though.
Once we reached the money, an interesting situation came up. I currently believe I made the right decision, but I'll post this hand for comments.
hand #1
Just in the money, ~16 players remain, 8 seated, avg chips ~20k. Blinds are $3/$6k. I have $13k on the button. CO has $4k, SB and BB have me covered, CO is a semi-solid player, SB is a very straightforward player, I have no experience with the BB player.
- preflop: folded to CO who pushes for $4k. I look down and find QJo.
What's my play?
I am 100% certain CO has me beat, but he has a huge range of hands that I believe I have 40%-50% pot equity if I can get him headsup. If I can get the blinds to fold I will only be risking $2k to win $13k. However, probably any hand that BB will call with will at best be a coin flip for me, and more likely he will have me dominated.
If I gamble and win, I'll have $26k, and have some breathing room or more likely the comfort to try to steal the blinds a couple of times. I don't care about moving up in the money until there are around 6 people remaining.
In the actual hand, I elected to push all in. The blinds folded. CO showed A9o and his hand held up.
Saturday, July 30, 2005
"An ace on ~every~ flop"
It was so refreshing to play a live MTT (multi-table tournament) that I played 3 more small buy in no limit MTTs ($5, $10, and $40) respectively. No cashes in any events. I finished in the top 20% in the first two, and lasted 4 hands in the $40, when I reraised a LAG (who had played or raised all of the first 3 hands) with QQ, and he pushed with his AKs.
I faced AK and AKs 6 times with a pocket pair. An A flopped on all 6 occasions, however in one hand, I rivered a set.
I try not to be superstituous, but by the end of the day I couldn't help feeling dread whenever the cards are turned over and I see the dreaded AK.
I love the comments people make online, "Finally, AK holds up". lol
Hmmm, all these tournament entries without a cash can add up. It is odd. I feel fine with the 7 odd hours of poker I played today, but I'm down several hundred dollars. Playing limit side games well for 7 hours rarely produces negative results. Oh well, at least it was a break from the usual.
I faced AK and AKs 6 times with a pocket pair. An A flopped on all 6 occasions, however in one hand, I rivered a set.
I try not to be superstituous, but by the end of the day I couldn't help feeling dread whenever the cards are turned over and I see the dreaded AK.
I love the comments people make online, "Finally, AK holds up". lol
Hmmm, all these tournament entries without a cash can add up. It is odd. I feel fine with the 7 odd hours of poker I played today, but I'm down several hundred dollars. Playing limit side games well for 7 hours rarely produces negative results. Oh well, at least it was a break from the usual.
"An Ace on every flop"
In an effort to keep poker fun, and not just "interesting", I decided to again enter the weekly no-limit $120 buy-in $60 rebuy/addon at the local poker room.
I was quite happy with the way I played. My tournament life was never at stake until my very last hand. I was completely card dead for the first 2 levels, but I picked up enough playable hands in later rounds.
In the middle rounds I was very lucky because I picked up a number of medium strength hands that I got all in preflop where I had my short stacked opponent dominated, e.g. 99 vs 77, AK vs A9.
I made one bad laydown in level 3 where I didn't make a continuation bet on an A high flop when I flopped a pair of Ks, and folded to my opponents bet. He flashed an underpair 8s.
I was able to steal enough blinds in the 5th and 6th rounds to keep a big enough stack to afford to keep stealing. That's kind of funny, but that is the way no limit tournaments work.
In early level 8, I was almost exactly an average stack with 45 players remaining. I had only 8 BB remaining (the structure is very fast in this tournament, and the blinds had just doubled). It was folded to me 2 off the button, and I looked down and found 2 black Kings. I made the minimum raise because the player on the button had a tendency to come over the top all in with hands as low as any medium Ace. The button did push all in, and he had me covered. I called, and he showed ATs.
The title of this post says it all, and I didn't catch up.
I was quite happy with the way I played. My tournament life was never at stake until my very last hand. I was completely card dead for the first 2 levels, but I picked up enough playable hands in later rounds.
In the middle rounds I was very lucky because I picked up a number of medium strength hands that I got all in preflop where I had my short stacked opponent dominated, e.g. 99 vs 77, AK vs A9.
I made one bad laydown in level 3 where I didn't make a continuation bet on an A high flop when I flopped a pair of Ks, and folded to my opponents bet. He flashed an underpair 8s.
I was able to steal enough blinds in the 5th and 6th rounds to keep a big enough stack to afford to keep stealing. That's kind of funny, but that is the way no limit tournaments work.
In early level 8, I was almost exactly an average stack with 45 players remaining. I had only 8 BB remaining (the structure is very fast in this tournament, and the blinds had just doubled). It was folded to me 2 off the button, and I looked down and found 2 black Kings. I made the minimum raise because the player on the button had a tendency to come over the top all in with hands as low as any medium Ace. The button did push all in, and he had me covered. I called, and he showed ATs.
The title of this post says it all, and I didn't catch up.
Friday, July 29, 2005
Vegas trip summary
I am disappointed in the way things went in Vegas. I failed to achieve my primary two goals of the trip: 1) gaining experience in high limit action games, 2) playing well
Due to lack of sleep, I elected not to play in any game higher than $15/$30. Probably also due to lack of sleep, I also made mistakes in excess of -1BB/hour. Ironically, my net results were very good > +$100/hour, but this was only due to pure dumb luck. My results would have been considerably better had I been playing well. The actual results kept the trip from being a disaster, but I am quite ashamed of how things went.
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My flight to Vegas was at 5:30pm on Saturday. I was planning on being as well rested as possible for playing $30/$60 games from midnight to 4am. So my original plan had been to wake up early on Saturday and then take a 4 hour nap at around noon. My reasoning was that if I just tried to sleep in until around noon, there was a high probability that I would wake up (for any number of reasons) well before then and be unable to fall asleep for an afternoon nap.
I woke at 6am, and decided to head over to the local poker room for a few hours of additional practice. At around 8am, I made the first poor decision of the day. I elected to sign up for a no limit tournament. I was under the impression that the tournament started at 8:45am because of poor annoucements and my failure to diligently confirm the schedule before signing up, but it actually started at 9:45am. My borderline thinking at the time was that I would likely be done in 3 hours or less which would be a good time to go home and take a nap. If I was still in the tournament after 3 hours, I was likely in the money, and had a good chance to cash in a high position. Thus, my cashing in a high position (1st place was $11k, on a $120 buyin, $60 rebuy) would compensate for losing part of my nappy time.
An additional consideration was that this type of fast structure no limit tournament actually would be much more relaxing than playing side games for a couple of hours because the decisions tend to be very simple - push all in or call all in. I was planning on heading home immediately after the tournament.
I received a slightly above average number of good hands, and took only 1 modest bad beat until I reached the money at the last 18 players. This was roughly at about the 3 hour mark, so about 1:15pm when including breaks. I had an above average stack, and by the time there were 15 players remaining I was the chip leader with approximate 16% of all chips in play.
Perhaps at this point I was a little bit tired from sleeping relatively little the night before, but at any rate, I made my 2nd notable mistake of the day. This was the worst mistake you can make when you are chip leader in a no limit tournament. Namely, I got involved in a huge pot with the 2nd chip leader with a marginal hand losing close to 70% of my chip stack. For the remainder of my tournament I had less than 4 big blinds, and ended up busting out in 10th place for a $510 finish.
It was very disappointing, but additionally, it was already 2:45pm. I rushed home, got packed and was only able to lie down for about 25 minutes before heading out to the airport. I believe I only slept for about 15 minutes on the plane. Daytime flights can be quite rowdy, especially on Southwest.
Saturday night I played mostly $15/$30, and I actually enjoyed it quite a lot. I spent a considerable amount of time chatting with a middle aged pro from the east coast. Actually come to think of it, one theme from the weekend is that I had numerous opportunities to chat with professional players (although, this should be a tip off that I was often not in particularly good games). This helped me learn quite a bit about the Vegas poker scene, so in retrospect, the trip was not a complete waste.
At around midnight, I think I should have gone to bed and gotten a good night's rest so that I might at least have the option of playing in a higher stakes game on Sunday. Instead, I got seated in an $8/$16 game and it was a fantastic game. It featured the worst player I have ever seen at an $8/$16 game (it seems like every few weeks I keep encountering another "worst player ever" and I hope this keeps up...), and I was able to win my fair share of pots from this tourist. However, in the middle of the session I made a mistake that I want to avoid making in the future. Basically, on one hand, I trapped the tourist with a set and then check raised him on the river. He was very upset about it. I basically made a fool of him, and he didn't call my river check raise. I understand better now what some professional players talk about in their books about trying to keep the game slightly friendly and to avoid upsetting the tourists. I think I got considerable less action from him after that incident. Another good learning experience.
Hmmm, I think overall I failed to meet my primary objectives for the trip. However, after reviewing the sessions, I did learn some things and also encountered some situations that helped reinforce things I already knew. The trip was also fun. All in all, it was not a wasted trip, but I hope to execute better on the next trip.
Due to lack of sleep, I elected not to play in any game higher than $15/$30. Probably also due to lack of sleep, I also made mistakes in excess of -1BB/hour. Ironically, my net results were very good > +$100/hour, but this was only due to pure dumb luck. My results would have been considerably better had I been playing well. The actual results kept the trip from being a disaster, but I am quite ashamed of how things went.
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My flight to Vegas was at 5:30pm on Saturday. I was planning on being as well rested as possible for playing $30/$60 games from midnight to 4am. So my original plan had been to wake up early on Saturday and then take a 4 hour nap at around noon. My reasoning was that if I just tried to sleep in until around noon, there was a high probability that I would wake up (for any number of reasons) well before then and be unable to fall asleep for an afternoon nap.
I woke at 6am, and decided to head over to the local poker room for a few hours of additional practice. At around 8am, I made the first poor decision of the day. I elected to sign up for a no limit tournament. I was under the impression that the tournament started at 8:45am because of poor annoucements and my failure to diligently confirm the schedule before signing up, but it actually started at 9:45am. My borderline thinking at the time was that I would likely be done in 3 hours or less which would be a good time to go home and take a nap. If I was still in the tournament after 3 hours, I was likely in the money, and had a good chance to cash in a high position. Thus, my cashing in a high position (1st place was $11k, on a $120 buyin, $60 rebuy) would compensate for losing part of my nappy time.
An additional consideration was that this type of fast structure no limit tournament actually would be much more relaxing than playing side games for a couple of hours because the decisions tend to be very simple - push all in or call all in. I was planning on heading home immediately after the tournament.
I received a slightly above average number of good hands, and took only 1 modest bad beat until I reached the money at the last 18 players. This was roughly at about the 3 hour mark, so about 1:15pm when including breaks. I had an above average stack, and by the time there were 15 players remaining I was the chip leader with approximate 16% of all chips in play.
Perhaps at this point I was a little bit tired from sleeping relatively little the night before, but at any rate, I made my 2nd notable mistake of the day. This was the worst mistake you can make when you are chip leader in a no limit tournament. Namely, I got involved in a huge pot with the 2nd chip leader with a marginal hand losing close to 70% of my chip stack. For the remainder of my tournament I had less than 4 big blinds, and ended up busting out in 10th place for a $510 finish.
It was very disappointing, but additionally, it was already 2:45pm. I rushed home, got packed and was only able to lie down for about 25 minutes before heading out to the airport. I believe I only slept for about 15 minutes on the plane. Daytime flights can be quite rowdy, especially on Southwest.
Saturday night I played mostly $15/$30, and I actually enjoyed it quite a lot. I spent a considerable amount of time chatting with a middle aged pro from the east coast. Actually come to think of it, one theme from the weekend is that I had numerous opportunities to chat with professional players (although, this should be a tip off that I was often not in particularly good games). This helped me learn quite a bit about the Vegas poker scene, so in retrospect, the trip was not a complete waste.
At around midnight, I think I should have gone to bed and gotten a good night's rest so that I might at least have the option of playing in a higher stakes game on Sunday. Instead, I got seated in an $8/$16 game and it was a fantastic game. It featured the worst player I have ever seen at an $8/$16 game (it seems like every few weeks I keep encountering another "worst player ever" and I hope this keeps up...), and I was able to win my fair share of pots from this tourist. However, in the middle of the session I made a mistake that I want to avoid making in the future. Basically, on one hand, I trapped the tourist with a set and then check raised him on the river. He was very upset about it. I basically made a fool of him, and he didn't call my river check raise. I understand better now what some professional players talk about in their books about trying to keep the game slightly friendly and to avoid upsetting the tourists. I think I got considerable less action from him after that incident. Another good learning experience.
Hmmm, I think overall I failed to meet my primary objectives for the trip. However, after reviewing the sessions, I did learn some things and also encountered some situations that helped reinforce things I already knew. The trip was also fun. All in all, it was not a wasted trip, but I hope to execute better on the next trip.
Friday, July 22, 2005
Ready, set, Vegas!
I had a very good night's rest last night, and I hope I can get an equally good night's rest tonight. On Saturday afternoon, I'm off to Vegas for my first serious poker trip. I will be in town for roughly 36 hours, and will probably play for roughly 18 hours. I intend to take a shot at the well-known loose $30/$60 tables at the Bellagio. From what I have heard, this is a very high variance action game. I hope that my gameplay is adjusted correctly for the loose game mid limit action. I have been doing a lot of preparation to consider what aspects of my playing style need to be changed.
I have done all the preparation I can reasonably expect to do. There is no substitute for experience.
The one mistake I want to avoid in this game is to "fold the winning hand on the river" when the pot is anything larger than 8 big bets. I'm going to favor the "paying off on the river" mistake in big pots until I have a good feel for my opponents. I guess another way of saying this is that I am going to model my unknown opponents with a considerably higher bluffing % than the average $20/$40 opponent I play with at my local poker room. Additionally, I will have to increase the range of hands that I will bet or raise with on the turn.
I wonder if there will be more multiway (vs. headsup) river situations that will present me with tougher decisions (e.g. facing a river bet from a LAG with a medium str hand with LAG players behind me to act). Quite possibly yes, so I think I want to ensure I am well rested before any of my $30/$60 sessions.
My plan is to play 3 hour sessions. I do not have the mental stamina to play my A-game for longer than 3 hours at a time without starting to play sloppy.
I've had about 5 session hours of experience at $15/$30 Bellagio tables, and I'm quite comfortable with this limit and the "average" player in that game. I may also try an afternoon session at the Mirage $20/$40 game. Based on reviews I have read, I think I should do fine in the Mirage $20/$40 game.
I need to remember to keep a $1 chip from any casino I play in for my collection.
Rules of engagement
Here is a general list of tactical rules I will follow on this trip.
- I will limit all of my mid stakes limit game sessions to 3 hours even if the game is good. (If the game is exceptionally good, I will force myself to walk away from the table for 20 minutes to take a break. Even then I will only continue for a max of 2 additional hours)
- I will have no stop-loss limit for playing $30/$60 (other than complete loss of bankroll). I will stop when the 3 hour session limit is reached, if the table is too tough, I am tired, or I suspect any collusion.
- I will not take a shot at $40/$80 this trip unless my bankroll is up more than $5k. If this is the case, I can attempt a 2 hour session if I am rested. Given the schedule of the trip, it is extremely unlikely for the gating condition to be met. (at a $30/$60 game, that is +83.3BB!)
- If I am tired, but not sleepy I will restrict myself to playing $8/$16 or $4/$8 with drunken tourists.
Goals for the trip?
I'm not sure what my goals should be. If I played non-stop from the time I landed until the time my return flight left, I would be playing less than 2000 hands, and realistically I expect to play less than 1000 hands. This is too small of a number to have a BB/hour target goal.
I think I will resort to my olde "mistakes" method of counting things. After every 3 hour session, I will make some notes on any mistakes I think I made during the session. I should be able to estimate the cost of each mistake in BBs (even if it is a statistical guess). My goal will be to make less than 0.5BB/hour in mistakes.
I can't see any other reasonable way to judge success of the trip. This is of course my rational opinion now. If I come back up $3000 I'll probably have a grin on my face, and if I'm down $3000 I'll probably look pretty glum even if I made 0 mistakes.
I'm expecting to put in approximately 18 table hours this trip with avg table stakes of $40 per BB. Long term for this type of trip, I would like to have an avg result of +1.5BB (net after tips and food). Hmmm, after my travel expenses ($300) this means my goal would only net $780. That seems incredibly lame. I'm not sure how much to value the "learning experience" aspect of this trip. Probably it is not worth that much other than psychological conditioning.
Hmmm, I wonder if +1.5BB is the right number. For example, in my one prior 3.5 hour Bellagio $8/$16 session with sleepy tourists my result was +10.0BB/hour. My hand situations were not too extraordinary. I had an average number of good hands, perhaps a slightly below average number of bad beats, and perhaps a slightly above average number of times I outdrew my opponent. I just earned a large number of extra big bets because some tourists were paying off ~over~calling all the way with any pair (e.g. 3rd pair lousy kicker, pocket pair when board has 4 overcards, etc) chasing gutshots or runner runner draws (proud to show when they missed...). Given those same conditions, I think +5.0BB/hour should be very reasonable. I may have more thoughts on the expected long term results after this trip.
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I still have high confidence in my mid stakes limit hold'em game. In my last, $20/$40 session I lost 14BB in 75 minutes. The result was disappointing but I believe I made absolutely no mistakes - losing the minimum and winning the maximum on all interesting hands. I was dealt AKs 3 times, completely missing the flop the first 2 times, but made top pair top kicker when my lone opponent hit a set. Made reasonable laydowns on the river in situations like when two opponents called me to the river which brought runner runner 4 to the straight and 4 to the flush vs my top two pair (9 high flush bet, and got called by unimproved 3rd pocket pair). By contrast, the donkey 2 seats to my left managed to win the minimum and lose the maximum finishing up around 12BB during the same time period. The donkey could not miss a flop though, and opponents had a hard time catching up even when donkey gave free cards. This was the kind of player that had good starting hand selection, but absolutely terrible postflop skills. I'd love to play with a table full of these players every single day.
Patience and discipline. If I can continue to play well, and actually go through some decent situations I should do very well this weekend.
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I've delayed deciding what my poker bankroll penalty will be until I come back from this trip.
I have done all the preparation I can reasonably expect to do. There is no substitute for experience.
The one mistake I want to avoid in this game is to "fold the winning hand on the river" when the pot is anything larger than 8 big bets. I'm going to favor the "paying off on the river" mistake in big pots until I have a good feel for my opponents. I guess another way of saying this is that I am going to model my unknown opponents with a considerably higher bluffing % than the average $20/$40 opponent I play with at my local poker room. Additionally, I will have to increase the range of hands that I will bet or raise with on the turn.
I wonder if there will be more multiway (vs. headsup) river situations that will present me with tougher decisions (e.g. facing a river bet from a LAG with a medium str hand with LAG players behind me to act). Quite possibly yes, so I think I want to ensure I am well rested before any of my $30/$60 sessions.
My plan is to play 3 hour sessions. I do not have the mental stamina to play my A-game for longer than 3 hours at a time without starting to play sloppy.
I've had about 5 session hours of experience at $15/$30 Bellagio tables, and I'm quite comfortable with this limit and the "average" player in that game. I may also try an afternoon session at the Mirage $20/$40 game. Based on reviews I have read, I think I should do fine in the Mirage $20/$40 game.
I need to remember to keep a $1 chip from any casino I play in for my collection.
Rules of engagement
Here is a general list of tactical rules I will follow on this trip.
- I will limit all of my mid stakes limit game sessions to 3 hours even if the game is good. (If the game is exceptionally good, I will force myself to walk away from the table for 20 minutes to take a break. Even then I will only continue for a max of 2 additional hours)
- I will have no stop-loss limit for playing $30/$60 (other than complete loss of bankroll). I will stop when the 3 hour session limit is reached, if the table is too tough, I am tired, or I suspect any collusion.
- I will not take a shot at $40/$80 this trip unless my bankroll is up more than $5k. If this is the case, I can attempt a 2 hour session if I am rested. Given the schedule of the trip, it is extremely unlikely for the gating condition to be met. (at a $30/$60 game, that is +83.3BB!)
- If I am tired, but not sleepy I will restrict myself to playing $8/$16 or $4/$8 with drunken tourists.
Goals for the trip?
I'm not sure what my goals should be. If I played non-stop from the time I landed until the time my return flight left, I would be playing less than 2000 hands, and realistically I expect to play less than 1000 hands. This is too small of a number to have a BB/hour target goal.
I think I will resort to my olde "mistakes" method of counting things. After every 3 hour session, I will make some notes on any mistakes I think I made during the session. I should be able to estimate the cost of each mistake in BBs (even if it is a statistical guess). My goal will be to make less than 0.5BB/hour in mistakes.
I can't see any other reasonable way to judge success of the trip. This is of course my rational opinion now. If I come back up $3000 I'll probably have a grin on my face, and if I'm down $3000 I'll probably look pretty glum even if I made 0 mistakes.
I'm expecting to put in approximately 18 table hours this trip with avg table stakes of $40 per BB. Long term for this type of trip, I would like to have an avg result of +1.5BB (net after tips and food). Hmmm, after my travel expenses ($300) this means my goal would only net $780. That seems incredibly lame. I'm not sure how much to value the "learning experience" aspect of this trip. Probably it is not worth that much other than psychological conditioning.
Hmmm, I wonder if +1.5BB is the right number. For example, in my one prior 3.5 hour Bellagio $8/$16 session with sleepy tourists my result was +10.0BB/hour. My hand situations were not too extraordinary. I had an average number of good hands, perhaps a slightly below average number of bad beats, and perhaps a slightly above average number of times I outdrew my opponent. I just earned a large number of extra big bets because some tourists were paying off ~over~calling all the way with any pair (e.g. 3rd pair lousy kicker, pocket pair when board has 4 overcards, etc) chasing gutshots or runner runner draws (proud to show when they missed...). Given those same conditions, I think +5.0BB/hour should be very reasonable. I may have more thoughts on the expected long term results after this trip.
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I still have high confidence in my mid stakes limit hold'em game. In my last, $20/$40 session I lost 14BB in 75 minutes. The result was disappointing but I believe I made absolutely no mistakes - losing the minimum and winning the maximum on all interesting hands. I was dealt AKs 3 times, completely missing the flop the first 2 times, but made top pair top kicker when my lone opponent hit a set. Made reasonable laydowns on the river in situations like when two opponents called me to the river which brought runner runner 4 to the straight and 4 to the flush vs my top two pair (9 high flush bet, and got called by unimproved 3rd pocket pair). By contrast, the donkey 2 seats to my left managed to win the minimum and lose the maximum finishing up around 12BB during the same time period. The donkey could not miss a flop though, and opponents had a hard time catching up even when donkey gave free cards. This was the kind of player that had good starting hand selection, but absolutely terrible postflop skills. I'd love to play with a table full of these players every single day.
Patience and discipline. If I can continue to play well, and actually go through some decent situations I should do very well this weekend.
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I've delayed deciding what my poker bankroll penalty will be until I come back from this trip.
Thursday, July 21, 2005
Mid-stakes snob?
I think I'm becoming a bit of a live mid-stakes snob.
Often times I will find myself at a low limit table $3/$6, $6/$12 while waiting for a seat in a bigger game. I've noticed that I'm starting to have pet peeves.
- dealer incompetence (misdealing, not following the action, misreading the cards at the showdown, burn and turn prior to the completion of action, not noticing incorrect number of chips, etc). The cardroom tends to put the less experienced dealers on the lower limit tables, and there is an enormous difference in skills between a good dealer and an average one. A bad dealer really poisons the experience.
- slow players. Some players frequently take 10 or more seconds (and sometimes much more) to act when there is virutally no decision to make, not realizing it is their turn to act, not following the action, etc.... Players at the mid stakes tables are almost always experienced players, and since everyone is experienced, the table won't tolerate a slow player (although thinking for a moderate period of time for an obvious tough decision is perfectly okay). This can also be influenced by the competency of the dealer who should be working to keep the action flowing smoothly (verbally repeating players' actions, like raises, reraises, indicating it is a certain player's turn to act, etc)
From my one Vegas poker experience, I did encounter a much larger percentage of slow to act players who obviously had little or no experience - the Tourist. I certainly understand the importance of being nice to the Tourist. I can put up with slow-to-act players if they are bad enough, but I do get annoyed when a rock constantly slows the game does.
- acting out of turn. It is much more common for low stakes players to act of turn, and this can often have an influence on the outcome of a hand. It is just disrespectful to others to act out of turn.
- exposing cards. I have found that it is only slightly more common for players to expose cards in the low limit vs mid-stakes limits. Interestingly, some of the players at $6/$12 who most frequently expose their cards are small stakes pros that expose their cards out of frustration postflop. It is amazing inconsiderate, and I really resent them because they act so selfishly. They are relatively good players for that level, but they don't show any consideration for anyone but themselves.
- table coaches: seem a little more common at low stakes games than midstakes games.
Live poker is definitely more enjoyable than online, but sometimes these factors spoil the experience.
Okay, enough bitching and complaining for today....
Often times I will find myself at a low limit table $3/$6, $6/$12 while waiting for a seat in a bigger game. I've noticed that I'm starting to have pet peeves.
- dealer incompetence (misdealing, not following the action, misreading the cards at the showdown, burn and turn prior to the completion of action, not noticing incorrect number of chips, etc). The cardroom tends to put the less experienced dealers on the lower limit tables, and there is an enormous difference in skills between a good dealer and an average one. A bad dealer really poisons the experience.
- slow players. Some players frequently take 10 or more seconds (and sometimes much more) to act when there is virutally no decision to make, not realizing it is their turn to act, not following the action, etc.... Players at the mid stakes tables are almost always experienced players, and since everyone is experienced, the table won't tolerate a slow player (although thinking for a moderate period of time for an obvious tough decision is perfectly okay). This can also be influenced by the competency of the dealer who should be working to keep the action flowing smoothly (verbally repeating players' actions, like raises, reraises, indicating it is a certain player's turn to act, etc)
From my one Vegas poker experience, I did encounter a much larger percentage of slow to act players who obviously had little or no experience - the Tourist. I certainly understand the importance of being nice to the Tourist. I can put up with slow-to-act players if they are bad enough, but I do get annoyed when a rock constantly slows the game does.
- acting out of turn. It is much more common for low stakes players to act of turn, and this can often have an influence on the outcome of a hand. It is just disrespectful to others to act out of turn.
- exposing cards. I have found that it is only slightly more common for players to expose cards in the low limit vs mid-stakes limits. Interestingly, some of the players at $6/$12 who most frequently expose their cards are small stakes pros that expose their cards out of frustration postflop. It is amazing inconsiderate, and I really resent them because they act so selfishly. They are relatively good players for that level, but they don't show any consideration for anyone but themselves.
- table coaches: seem a little more common at low stakes games than midstakes games.
Live poker is definitely more enjoyable than online, but sometimes these factors spoil the experience.
Okay, enough bitching and complaining for today....
Wednesday, July 20, 2005
buh-bye bankroll??
A few weeks back I said I would give up my entire poker bankroll if I made a particular type of mistake related to "incorrectly protecting my hand" again this summer.
In my last playing session, I essentially made the same mistake again. I'm not certain if the mistake is as bad as the last time, but if not, it is pretty darn close. I don't know what this should mean. Does it mean I have to give up my entire poker bankroll? Compare this hand with the previous one.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
- preflop: loose player limps UTG, avg player limps UTG+1, unknown player limps in MP+1, LAG (but smart) player raises in MP+2, folded to me in SB where I find QsQh and I reraise, BB folds, everyone else calls. (5 players, 16 small bets)
- flop: 9d7c2h, I bet, everyone calls (5 players, 21 small bets)
- turn: 9d7c2h3d, I bet, BB folds, everyone else calls (4 players, 14.5 big bets)
- river: 9d7c2h3d7s, checked to MP+1 who bets, LAG folds, I call, UTG+1 folds, MP+1 shows 7h4h. MP+1 wins 16.5 big bet pot.
With 5 players to the flop for 3 bets, I definitely should know that ~any~ opponent with ~any~ pair or ~any~ draw will chase me down to the river. I must either check the flop or the turn to get a check raise in to have the best chance to survive at the river.
It could be argued that I should only call preflop, but I raised hoping to get a few players out. In prior hands, there had been opponents who had been capable of folding to a 3 bet after already limping.
Postflop, the only possible scenario where I can win given what MP+1 actually had would have been to get a check raise in on the turn with LAG betting. Even then, MP+1 may still call 2 cold with 2nd pair (I don't know him well enough to guess a probability). I'm also not ~certain~ LAG will bet the turn for me given I had 3 bet preflop (I guess he will at least 50% of the time, maybe more like 80% of the time if I check both the flop and turn).
Given what my opponents likely had, I think I could have won the hand (with fairly high probabilty) by calling preflop, check calling on the flop, and check raising the turn. However, this is "results oriented" thinking. I think my 3 bet preflop was fine, but I should have checked the flop and turn (when I saw that I had 4 opponents, but probably still even if I only had 3 or 2 opponents).
Now, the real question I am pondering is if this hand qualifies as a bad enough "incorrectly protecting my hand" mistake such that I need to fulfill my promise. In the hand from a few weeks ago, I had AA, so there were more overcards I was worried about when holding QQ. However, in the AA hand there was a flush and str draw on the flop vs just a str draw in the QQ hand. In the QQ hand, I have more opponents. In the AA hand, the button capped it preflop so I can be 100% certain he will bet the flop.
Some of these factors balance each other out, and the mistake in the QQ hand seems equal in magnitude to the AA hand. It seems like I owe my wife my bankroll. I know she doesn't want my bankroll, so I'll see what I can negotiate with her. I certainly think I must penalize myself seriously in some way.
Talk about bad timing. I'm heading to Vegas this weekend....
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Now purely for entertainment value, I'll post the hand that immediately proceeded the one I just listed. It cheered me up quite a bit after the last hand.
hand #2
- preflop: avg player limps UTG, unknown player limps in MP, LAG player limps in MP+1, loose player #2 limps in MP+2, CO folds, I'm find QsJs on the button, I mutter "steam raise" and put in 2 bets. Amusingly, the dealer loudly announces "steam raise!". SB folds, loose player #1 in BB calls, everyone else calls. (6 players see the flop, 12 small bets)
- flop: Tc4cKh, BB bets and says "let's see where I'm at", avg player calls, unknown player raises, LAG folds, loose player #2 folds, I reraise (trying to buy a free card). BB grumbles and folds, the other 2 call. (3 players, 22 small bets)
- turn: Tc4cKh9d, (BINGO!) avg player checks, unknown player bets (YIPPEE! even with a set, he's only got 10 outs), I raise, avg player calls 2 cold (OKAY DEALER - NO CLUBS!!!), unknown player just calls (WHEW, probably not a set, either drawing dead or 4 outs). (3 players, 17 big bets)
- river: Tc4cKh9d8d (GOOD JOB DEALER!), checked to me, I bet, both call, I show the nuts, avg player mucks, unknown player disgustedly throws his top 2 pair at the dealer (What's the matter buddy, you never outdraw someone? Think back 1 hand...). I win a nice 20 big bet pot. Very emotionally satisfying. Winning a big pot is always nice therapy.
In my last playing session, I essentially made the same mistake again. I'm not certain if the mistake is as bad as the last time, but if not, it is pretty darn close. I don't know what this should mean. Does it mean I have to give up my entire poker bankroll? Compare this hand with the previous one.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
- preflop: loose player limps UTG, avg player limps UTG+1, unknown player limps in MP+1, LAG (but smart) player raises in MP+2, folded to me in SB where I find QsQh and I reraise, BB folds, everyone else calls. (5 players, 16 small bets)
- flop: 9d7c2h, I bet, everyone calls (5 players, 21 small bets)
- turn: 9d7c2h3d, I bet, BB folds, everyone else calls (4 players, 14.5 big bets)
- river: 9d7c2h3d7s, checked to MP+1 who bets, LAG folds, I call, UTG+1 folds, MP+1 shows 7h4h. MP+1 wins 16.5 big bet pot.
With 5 players to the flop for 3 bets, I definitely should know that ~any~ opponent with ~any~ pair or ~any~ draw will chase me down to the river. I must either check the flop or the turn to get a check raise in to have the best chance to survive at the river.
It could be argued that I should only call preflop, but I raised hoping to get a few players out. In prior hands, there had been opponents who had been capable of folding to a 3 bet after already limping.
Postflop, the only possible scenario where I can win given what MP+1 actually had would have been to get a check raise in on the turn with LAG betting. Even then, MP+1 may still call 2 cold with 2nd pair (I don't know him well enough to guess a probability). I'm also not ~certain~ LAG will bet the turn for me given I had 3 bet preflop (I guess he will at least 50% of the time, maybe more like 80% of the time if I check both the flop and turn).
Given what my opponents likely had, I think I could have won the hand (with fairly high probabilty) by calling preflop, check calling on the flop, and check raising the turn. However, this is "results oriented" thinking. I think my 3 bet preflop was fine, but I should have checked the flop and turn (when I saw that I had 4 opponents, but probably still even if I only had 3 or 2 opponents).
Now, the real question I am pondering is if this hand qualifies as a bad enough "incorrectly protecting my hand" mistake such that I need to fulfill my promise. In the hand from a few weeks ago, I had AA, so there were more overcards I was worried about when holding QQ. However, in the AA hand there was a flush and str draw on the flop vs just a str draw in the QQ hand. In the QQ hand, I have more opponents. In the AA hand, the button capped it preflop so I can be 100% certain he will bet the flop.
Some of these factors balance each other out, and the mistake in the QQ hand seems equal in magnitude to the AA hand. It seems like I owe my wife my bankroll. I know she doesn't want my bankroll, so I'll see what I can negotiate with her. I certainly think I must penalize myself seriously in some way.
Talk about bad timing. I'm heading to Vegas this weekend....
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Now purely for entertainment value, I'll post the hand that immediately proceeded the one I just listed. It cheered me up quite a bit after the last hand.
hand #2
- preflop: avg player limps UTG, unknown player limps in MP, LAG player limps in MP+1, loose player #2 limps in MP+2, CO folds, I'm find QsJs on the button, I mutter "steam raise" and put in 2 bets. Amusingly, the dealer loudly announces "steam raise!". SB folds, loose player #1 in BB calls, everyone else calls. (6 players see the flop, 12 small bets)
- flop: Tc4cKh, BB bets and says "let's see where I'm at", avg player calls, unknown player raises, LAG folds, loose player #2 folds, I reraise (trying to buy a free card). BB grumbles and folds, the other 2 call. (3 players, 22 small bets)
- turn: Tc4cKh9d, (BINGO!) avg player checks, unknown player bets (YIPPEE! even with a set, he's only got 10 outs), I raise, avg player calls 2 cold (OKAY DEALER - NO CLUBS!!!), unknown player just calls (WHEW, probably not a set, either drawing dead or 4 outs). (3 players, 17 big bets)
- river: Tc4cKh9d8d (GOOD JOB DEALER!), checked to me, I bet, both call, I show the nuts, avg player mucks, unknown player disgustedly throws his top 2 pair at the dealer (What's the matter buddy, you never outdraw someone? Think back 1 hand...). I win a nice 20 big bet pot. Very emotionally satisfying. Winning a big pot is always nice therapy.
Tuesday, July 19, 2005
Pay attention to the stacks
People generally acknowledge the crucial importance of keeping track of the chipstacks of their opponents during a tournament, particularly a no limit tournament.
However, it can be occasionally relevant even in a limit cash game.
Here is a very simple hand where I think I cost myself a big bet because I didn't pay attention to the chip stacks.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
- preflop: LAG open limps in EP+2, good player limps in MP, fold, solid player limps in MP+2, folded to SB who completes, I check in BB w 8s3s (5 players, 5 small bets)
- flop: 2c3d8h, SB checks, I check, LAG bets, good player calls, solid player folds, SB calls, I call. (4 players, 9 small bets)
- turn: 2c3d8h9d, SB checks, I check, LAG checks, good player bets, SB folds, I check raise, LAG folds, good player calls all in. (2 players, 8.5 big bets)
- river: 2c3d8h9d2s, I show, good player mucks.
On the turn, I should be almost 100% certain to have LAG drawing dead, and 95% certain that I am substantially ahead of good player (the only possible better hand that he could have based on the way the hand was played that beats me is 89)
LAG: Based on the way the hand was played, LAG either has 1 or 2 overcards. If he had any pair or any draw, he would have continued to bet the turn. Thus, I should have let him in on the turn for 1 big bet. (if the right card comes on the river I may even try to check raise him)
Good player is either substantially behind or way ahead. I think his range of hands is pocket pair smaller than 8, 2nd pair 8s with moderate kicker, top pair of 9s with moderate-good kicker, and flush draw with 2 overcards. I think the latter 2 are more likely because I expect him to raise with either of the first 2 on the flop. With the latter 2 possibilities he has 8 and 9 outs respectively. He probably won't pay off on the river if he misses a draw (although there is a slight possibility since some people have a tendency to make a crying call with the last of their chips especially with A high even if they usually play well), but most likely would pay off with a pair. I don't think he will bluff bet the river if he misses his draw, so I would have to bet the river headsup.
I believe the reasons why I should try to get LAG to overcall the turn are: the pot is only of moderate size, LAG is likely drawing dead, if good player outdraws me on the river it doesn't matter if the bet goes in on the turn or river (since I would have to call his bet on the river). Basically, I believe I am only risking a fraction of a big bet of EV from good player (if he misses a draw and folds) by calling the turn bet. I'm guessing LAG overcalls the turn bet at least 50% of the time, and he'll probably improve enough on the river ~15% of the time to put in at least 1 more big bet.
I very roughly estimate that I have faced this type of situation (i.e. a very short stacked opponent that influences how I might play a hand) about once every 1000 hands, so it matters little to make this mistake every single time. However, it would have been quite satisfying to win an extra big bet or 2 from making a good situational analysis.
I think in this case I had just been playing in automatic mode making the standard check raise on the turn from the blinds with either a set or 2 pair.
However, it can be occasionally relevant even in a limit cash game.
Here is a very simple hand where I think I cost myself a big bet because I didn't pay attention to the chip stacks.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game.
- preflop: LAG open limps in EP+2, good player limps in MP, fold, solid player limps in MP+2, folded to SB who completes, I check in BB w 8s3s (5 players, 5 small bets)
- flop: 2c3d8h, SB checks, I check, LAG bets, good player calls, solid player folds, SB calls, I call. (4 players, 9 small bets)
- turn: 2c3d8h9d, SB checks, I check, LAG checks, good player bets, SB folds, I check raise, LAG folds, good player calls all in. (2 players, 8.5 big bets)
- river: 2c3d8h9d2s, I show, good player mucks.
On the turn, I should be almost 100% certain to have LAG drawing dead, and 95% certain that I am substantially ahead of good player (the only possible better hand that he could have based on the way the hand was played that beats me is 89)
LAG: Based on the way the hand was played, LAG either has 1 or 2 overcards. If he had any pair or any draw, he would have continued to bet the turn. Thus, I should have let him in on the turn for 1 big bet. (if the right card comes on the river I may even try to check raise him)
Good player is either substantially behind or way ahead. I think his range of hands is pocket pair smaller than 8, 2nd pair 8s with moderate kicker, top pair of 9s with moderate-good kicker, and flush draw with 2 overcards. I think the latter 2 are more likely because I expect him to raise with either of the first 2 on the flop. With the latter 2 possibilities he has 8 and 9 outs respectively. He probably won't pay off on the river if he misses a draw (although there is a slight possibility since some people have a tendency to make a crying call with the last of their chips especially with A high even if they usually play well), but most likely would pay off with a pair. I don't think he will bluff bet the river if he misses his draw, so I would have to bet the river headsup.
I believe the reasons why I should try to get LAG to overcall the turn are: the pot is only of moderate size, LAG is likely drawing dead, if good player outdraws me on the river it doesn't matter if the bet goes in on the turn or river (since I would have to call his bet on the river). Basically, I believe I am only risking a fraction of a big bet of EV from good player (if he misses a draw and folds) by calling the turn bet. I'm guessing LAG overcalls the turn bet at least 50% of the time, and he'll probably improve enough on the river ~15% of the time to put in at least 1 more big bet.
I very roughly estimate that I have faced this type of situation (i.e. a very short stacked opponent that influences how I might play a hand) about once every 1000 hands, so it matters little to make this mistake every single time. However, it would have been quite satisfying to win an extra big bet or 2 from making a good situational analysis.
I think in this case I had just been playing in automatic mode making the standard check raise on the turn from the blinds with either a set or 2 pair.
Monday, July 18, 2005
I need to think faster
Limit hold'em looks like a simple game. Yet, there can be fairly interesting betting situations on the later streets.
Here is a hand that I had a high probability of winning if my mind had just been able to process the given data just a little more quickly. I was a little tired during this session.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. I haven't been involved in too many hands yet. The SB is an unknown player. The BB does a moderate amount of thinking. I'm in seat 1, and SB and BB are in seats 5 and 6.
- preflop: I open raise in MP+1 w JhJs, folded to the blinds who both call. The SB only has 1 small bet remaining behind, and both I and the BB have deep stacks. (3 players, 6 small bets)
- flop: Tc4c2d: checked to me, I bet, both blinds call. (3 players, 4.5 big bets, SB is all in)
- turn: Tc4c2d5c: BB bets out, I think for a couple of seconds and notice that SB does not look particularly happy. I raise. BB calls. (3 players, 4.5 big bets in main pot, 4 big bets in side pot)
- river: Tc4c2d5cKc: BB checks, I check. SB shows AsQd, BB shows 4d5h, I muck. BB wins both pots, 8.5 big bets total.
Given the data available to me, I should have bet the river (and folded to a raise - although I don't expect to be check raised by any hand except one containing the Ac).
My read on the situation when BB bet the turn and called my raise is that he had a medium-ish club (maybe 7,8,9,J, or Q) and a T.
When the 4 flush came on the river, I just gave up on the pot. However, there were 4 big bets in the side pot. The SB looked legitimately weak, and there were 4.5 big bets in the main pot. I should invest 1 more big bet since I cannot expect to win a showdown with BB. With a small club, say 8 or lower, I think it is a difficult call for BB. Additionally, I think that the SB being all in should make the BB think my likelihood of bluffing to be smaller than normal (BB doesn't have a good viewing angle on SB because they are seated side by side, so he probably doesn't see how weak SB appears).
I would venture to guess that BB folds 25% of the time with a small club, and 50% of the time with any 2 pair, a straight or a set. I'm not sure how it would have affected BB's thinking if I had spent 15 more seconds thinking and then bet the river.
I just didn't put the pieces together fast enough to come to the correct decision. When I raised the turn, my reasoning (although incorrect) was that I wanted to get an extra big bet in on the turn if I was ahead; if I was marginally behind BB would call and then check unless he improved, and that BB would 3 bet the turn with a monster. When the 4 flush came on the river, it just didn't click in my mind fast enough that whatever I had thought on the turn was irrelevant and that I had a decent chance to win if I bet.
I probably should have been thought things out in advance a little more on the turn before raising.
Aggression was the key to the hand, and I would have been happy with my table image had I played the hand more aggressively. Regardless of the outcome, my bluff on the river would provide me with more action on my later legitimate hands.
A seperate question. What should I do if BB 3 bets the turn? I probably would have folded, but how weak does that look? I guess another way to ask the question is, what is the likelihood that I am drawing dead if BB 3 bets and how many outs do I reasonably expect to have if I am drawing live? I don't really care how weak it looks, I would fold if I knew I was drawing dead.
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[update 7/22/2005]
I've gotten feedback from a number of players who opinions I greatly respect, and there is unanimous agreement that I cannot bet the river. In the words of CF, "It is like taking $40 and lighting it on fire".
Here is a hand that I had a high probability of winning if my mind had just been able to process the given data just a little more quickly. I was a little tired during this session.
hand #1
9 seated live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. I haven't been involved in too many hands yet. The SB is an unknown player. The BB does a moderate amount of thinking. I'm in seat 1, and SB and BB are in seats 5 and 6.
- preflop: I open raise in MP+1 w JhJs, folded to the blinds who both call. The SB only has 1 small bet remaining behind, and both I and the BB have deep stacks. (3 players, 6 small bets)
- flop: Tc4c2d: checked to me, I bet, both blinds call. (3 players, 4.5 big bets, SB is all in)
- turn: Tc4c2d5c: BB bets out, I think for a couple of seconds and notice that SB does not look particularly happy. I raise. BB calls. (3 players, 4.5 big bets in main pot, 4 big bets in side pot)
- river: Tc4c2d5cKc: BB checks, I check. SB shows AsQd, BB shows 4d5h, I muck. BB wins both pots, 8.5 big bets total.
Given the data available to me, I should have bet the river (and folded to a raise - although I don't expect to be check raised by any hand except one containing the Ac).
My read on the situation when BB bet the turn and called my raise is that he had a medium-ish club (maybe 7,8,9,J, or Q) and a T.
When the 4 flush came on the river, I just gave up on the pot. However, there were 4 big bets in the side pot. The SB looked legitimately weak, and there were 4.5 big bets in the main pot. I should invest 1 more big bet since I cannot expect to win a showdown with BB. With a small club, say 8 or lower, I think it is a difficult call for BB. Additionally, I think that the SB being all in should make the BB think my likelihood of bluffing to be smaller than normal (BB doesn't have a good viewing angle on SB because they are seated side by side, so he probably doesn't see how weak SB appears).
I would venture to guess that BB folds 25% of the time with a small club, and 50% of the time with any 2 pair, a straight or a set. I'm not sure how it would have affected BB's thinking if I had spent 15 more seconds thinking and then bet the river.
I just didn't put the pieces together fast enough to come to the correct decision. When I raised the turn, my reasoning (although incorrect) was that I wanted to get an extra big bet in on the turn if I was ahead; if I was marginally behind BB would call and then check unless he improved, and that BB would 3 bet the turn with a monster. When the 4 flush came on the river, it just didn't click in my mind fast enough that whatever I had thought on the turn was irrelevant and that I had a decent chance to win if I bet.
I probably should have been thought things out in advance a little more on the turn before raising.
Aggression was the key to the hand, and I would have been happy with my table image had I played the hand more aggressively. Regardless of the outcome, my bluff on the river would provide me with more action on my later legitimate hands.
A seperate question. What should I do if BB 3 bets the turn? I probably would have folded, but how weak does that look? I guess another way to ask the question is, what is the likelihood that I am drawing dead if BB 3 bets and how many outs do I reasonably expect to have if I am drawing live? I don't really care how weak it looks, I would fold if I knew I was drawing dead.
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[update 7/22/2005]
I've gotten feedback from a number of players who opinions I greatly respect, and there is unanimous agreement that I cannot bet the river. In the words of CF, "It is like taking $40 and lighting it on fire".
Saturday, July 16, 2005
Random musings
Money? I don't think about the damn money!
Below is an excerpt from Barry Greenstein's new book, Ace on the River. It seems like a very accurate statement. I remember watching interviews with Doyle Brunson and Phil Hellmuth who both made statements to the same effect.
Knowing the value of money is negatively correlated to being a good poker player. I have never heard anyone say, "He is not afraid to bluff for his last dollar, but he is a careful shopper."
I definitely play better poker when I make no consideration for what actual money is being wagered. Sometimes, it is hard to put it out of mind. The key point is to utilize the correct strategy for whatever type of game you are in, and ignore the stakes. It is not uncommon for there to be looser action at higher limit tables. I think the only consideration for stakes is whether or not playing at a particular limit introduces significant risk of going broke (i.e. is your bankroll sufficient large to prevent a minor bad run from wiping you out?)
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Sticky chips
The chips that are in use at my local poker room are coated with a surface that gives the chips a tendency to sometimes stick together. This can often lead to minor difficulties when counting off chips to make a bet or raise.
Typically whenever I bet or raise, I have been taking a stack of twenty chips and then breaking off groups of 3 or 4 chips in a pile (depending on if I am making a 3, 4, 6, or 8 chip bet or raise). For example, when I am making an 8 chip raise I make 4 piles of 4 chips. However, when I am making the 4 piles, often a pile will only have have 3 chips because the 4th chip is still stuck on the bottom of the stack in my hand. I will jiggle the stack in my hand so the 4th chip falls off.
Related to this is the well known tell that when a player making a bet or raise has a very powerful hand, he/she will often have a trembling or shaking hand.
I have played enough hands of Hold'em to have seen essentially every possible situation (~150,000 hands of no limit, and 50,000 hands of limit). I generally think I should be able to contain my joy when I make a monster hand. However, I've only played about 8,000 hands of live poker.
I have a small worry related to the tell. In a live game when I have a monster hand, my concern is that my hand may still have a slight tendency to shake (perhaps if I was being not focused enough on the situation) and having to jiggle with the chips might magnify the tell.
One technique that I have noticed that many of the experience players use is to count out chips in advance (e.g. while the dealer is in the process of dealing) so they can just fire off the appropriate number of chips in one quick motion. This is probably the best solution to my minor concern when playing limit hold'em at my local poker room.
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Running well
Things continue to go well in the live $20/$40 game. I am generally happy with my micro and macro decisions.
For example, when I started my most recent session I sat down in the only $20/$40 table running. It was actually quite a tough table. Of the 2 bad players who were at the table when I sat down, 1 busted in the first 5 hands, and the other spent a substantial amount of time away from the table on his cell phone. During the 1st hour, I was involved in ~zero~ showdowns. I was playing no different than I have been recently. Showdowns were not happening because no one was ever calling. Raise or fold in every instance. It was really tough. I was actually down over 13BB at one point during the first hour. I never picked up any good hands in good situations, and had to make a number of tough decisions with marginal hands.
At any rate, by about the 1 hour mark, 2 more $20/$40 games had started. One game was a must move, and the other was a main game, like my current one. I asked the floor for a table change which happened within a few minutes. You could argue that I should have left the table within about 30 minutes. However, I am satisfied I did move before taking any more punishment. Another alternative that is probably more optimal bankroll-wise would have been to drop to easier lower limit games until there were sufficient $20/$40 games to make a good table selection. On the flip side, playing in a tougher game is actually quite interesting, challenging and educational.
The move to the other main game coinicided with my first ever real rush in a $20/$40 game. It was a rush that was on and off for about 2 hours. My stack increased by roughly 35 big bets during that time period. It was no where near as good as rushes I have seen other players go on, but it was the best one I have experienced thus far. (I have seen rushes in the +75-80BB range within 2 hour periods) I only list it now to help me remember in the future that occasionally rushes can happen to me too. In the past, my winning sessions were much more of a grind.
To be realistic, I don't expect to have many extended rushes given my playing strategy. I will be very content to not have any substantial bad streaks. (I'm talking about in $20/$40 and higher games. Lower limit games is a completely other matter. I have had +40BB rushes in 1 hour periods in $6/$12 and $8/$16 games using the same playing strategy but having sufficient terrible opponents to make those results possible)
I'll list a few hands from the rush:
- The first time I took the big blind, it was folded to the button who raised. BB folded, I called with 33 (planning to check raise if rags flopped). Flop came A37 rainbow. I check called the flop, and check raised the turn when a 2 flush came. Unfortunately, the button didn't have much of a hand because he folded. Pity, if he held an A, it would almost certainly have meant 2 more BB for me.
- I was dealt AA 4 times and it held up on each occasion ~~~unimproved!!~~~ (although 1 hand was when I was in the big blind, and it was folded to the blinds where we chopped). In each of the other 3 scenarios, I slow played the Aces until the turn. (I did have legitamate reasons for slow playing them though. In each of those 3 situations, the way the action occured, the hand was going to be played multiway no matter what I did preflop or on the flop. Tactically, I needed to wait until the turn to maximize my chances to knock out other players. Actually on 1 of the 3 hands I did raise preflop, but I check called the flop. I was very lucky not to have been outflopped or outturned. In those 3 hands, the river showdown ended up being headsup with the opponent's hand being top pair top kicker twice, and KK unimproved once. (In the hand vs. the KK opponent, I still believe I didn't lose any money by slow playing. The opponent was a very smart player, and I strongly believe the result would have been close to the same. When I check raised the turn, he called my hand as either Aces or a set; although he did pay the $80 to see my hand. Quite possibly some other one pair hands might have been able to reach the river if I had been more aggressive preflop or on the flop)
- I cracked Aces of a solid player. UTG+1 open raised, MP called, SB called, I call with 2c6c in the big blind. Flop comes 2h6h9h. I check, UTG+1 bets, MP and SB fold. I check raise to see where I am at. UTG+1 3 bets (which I interpret as most likely an overpair). I call. Turn comes offsuit T. I check raise again. UTG+1 calls. River comes offsuit 8, putting 4 to the straight on board. STUPIDLY I let it be checked down. My opponent almost certainly has a big pocket pair here, and I definitely missed a value bet there. The only reasonable hands that beat me are 99 and TT, and even then I don't expect to be raised even if my opponent holds those hands. Turns out my opponent had AhAx, so I dodged 14 outs on the flop and 17 outs on the turn! Yikes! When you are runnning good, no one can seem to catch up.
- I limp in MP with 55 and see a 4 way flop with me in the best position. Flop comes T73, 1 flush draw. Checked around. Turn T737, 2 flush draws. Checked to me, I bet, 2 callers. Board pairs on Ts on the river, and I'm stuck with a 5 kicker (TT775). My opponents check fold to my bet. Whew, this is how a rush feels!
- I raise one limper in MP with KhQh. Blinds and limpers call. Flop comes AhTh5c. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls. blank comes on the turn. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls. 6h comes on the river. BB bets, limper folds, I "think" for about 10 seconds, and notice that SB is going to fold (so there is ~zero~ point in only calling for an overcall or a check raise, besides even if SB might call only 1 bet, I should still raise with the nuts). I raise, SB folds, BB calls with his small flush. I show, Limper exclaims, "Damn!!!! My A was good."
The game actually got much better for the next 2-3 hours, with a VERY loose aggressive player, a total donkey, and a third somewhat loose player who sat down saying "I'm here to gamble". However, in this type of situation, the hands tend to be very multiway and almost certainly require having the best hand to win. I won very few pots in this period. That is just the way these situations go. The donkey put out some amazing suckouts during that time (runner runner, rivered gutshot when flop and turn was capped, etc), and paid off a very large number of river bets with truly ridiculous hands (e.g. bottom pair of 2s, 6 kicker when the board had 4 to the flush. The showdown was with the VERY loose player who had "bluffed" with 4th pair 3s, lousy kicker. Nice value bet.) Quite a sight to see. It was actually a pretty entertaining few hours, although pretty uneventful for me. I tried on every opportunity to see a flop with suited connectors, but missed every time. I was also "lucky" not to get any big pocket pairs during this time.
Below is an excerpt from Barry Greenstein's new book, Ace on the River. It seems like a very accurate statement. I remember watching interviews with Doyle Brunson and Phil Hellmuth who both made statements to the same effect.
Knowing the value of money is negatively correlated to being a good poker player. I have never heard anyone say, "He is not afraid to bluff for his last dollar, but he is a careful shopper."
I definitely play better poker when I make no consideration for what actual money is being wagered. Sometimes, it is hard to put it out of mind. The key point is to utilize the correct strategy for whatever type of game you are in, and ignore the stakes. It is not uncommon for there to be looser action at higher limit tables. I think the only consideration for stakes is whether or not playing at a particular limit introduces significant risk of going broke (i.e. is your bankroll sufficient large to prevent a minor bad run from wiping you out?)
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Sticky chips
The chips that are in use at my local poker room are coated with a surface that gives the chips a tendency to sometimes stick together. This can often lead to minor difficulties when counting off chips to make a bet or raise.
Typically whenever I bet or raise, I have been taking a stack of twenty chips and then breaking off groups of 3 or 4 chips in a pile (depending on if I am making a 3, 4, 6, or 8 chip bet or raise). For example, when I am making an 8 chip raise I make 4 piles of 4 chips. However, when I am making the 4 piles, often a pile will only have have 3 chips because the 4th chip is still stuck on the bottom of the stack in my hand. I will jiggle the stack in my hand so the 4th chip falls off.
Related to this is the well known tell that when a player making a bet or raise has a very powerful hand, he/she will often have a trembling or shaking hand.
I have played enough hands of Hold'em to have seen essentially every possible situation (~150,000 hands of no limit, and 50,000 hands of limit). I generally think I should be able to contain my joy when I make a monster hand. However, I've only played about 8,000 hands of live poker.
I have a small worry related to the tell. In a live game when I have a monster hand, my concern is that my hand may still have a slight tendency to shake (perhaps if I was being not focused enough on the situation) and having to jiggle with the chips might magnify the tell.
One technique that I have noticed that many of the experience players use is to count out chips in advance (e.g. while the dealer is in the process of dealing) so they can just fire off the appropriate number of chips in one quick motion. This is probably the best solution to my minor concern when playing limit hold'em at my local poker room.
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Running well
Things continue to go well in the live $20/$40 game. I am generally happy with my micro and macro decisions.
For example, when I started my most recent session I sat down in the only $20/$40 table running. It was actually quite a tough table. Of the 2 bad players who were at the table when I sat down, 1 busted in the first 5 hands, and the other spent a substantial amount of time away from the table on his cell phone. During the 1st hour, I was involved in ~zero~ showdowns. I was playing no different than I have been recently. Showdowns were not happening because no one was ever calling. Raise or fold in every instance. It was really tough. I was actually down over 13BB at one point during the first hour. I never picked up any good hands in good situations, and had to make a number of tough decisions with marginal hands.
At any rate, by about the 1 hour mark, 2 more $20/$40 games had started. One game was a must move, and the other was a main game, like my current one. I asked the floor for a table change which happened within a few minutes. You could argue that I should have left the table within about 30 minutes. However, I am satisfied I did move before taking any more punishment. Another alternative that is probably more optimal bankroll-wise would have been to drop to easier lower limit games until there were sufficient $20/$40 games to make a good table selection. On the flip side, playing in a tougher game is actually quite interesting, challenging and educational.
The move to the other main game coinicided with my first ever real rush in a $20/$40 game. It was a rush that was on and off for about 2 hours. My stack increased by roughly 35 big bets during that time period. It was no where near as good as rushes I have seen other players go on, but it was the best one I have experienced thus far. (I have seen rushes in the +75-80BB range within 2 hour periods) I only list it now to help me remember in the future that occasionally rushes can happen to me too. In the past, my winning sessions were much more of a grind.
To be realistic, I don't expect to have many extended rushes given my playing strategy. I will be very content to not have any substantial bad streaks. (I'm talking about in $20/$40 and higher games. Lower limit games is a completely other matter. I have had +40BB rushes in 1 hour periods in $6/$12 and $8/$16 games using the same playing strategy but having sufficient terrible opponents to make those results possible)
I'll list a few hands from the rush:
- The first time I took the big blind, it was folded to the button who raised. BB folded, I called with 33 (planning to check raise if rags flopped). Flop came A37 rainbow. I check called the flop, and check raised the turn when a 2 flush came. Unfortunately, the button didn't have much of a hand because he folded. Pity, if he held an A, it would almost certainly have meant 2 more BB for me.
- I was dealt AA 4 times and it held up on each occasion ~~~unimproved!!~~~ (although 1 hand was when I was in the big blind, and it was folded to the blinds where we chopped). In each of the other 3 scenarios, I slow played the Aces until the turn. (I did have legitamate reasons for slow playing them though. In each of those 3 situations, the way the action occured, the hand was going to be played multiway no matter what I did preflop or on the flop. Tactically, I needed to wait until the turn to maximize my chances to knock out other players. Actually on 1 of the 3 hands I did raise preflop, but I check called the flop. I was very lucky not to have been outflopped or outturned. In those 3 hands, the river showdown ended up being headsup with the opponent's hand being top pair top kicker twice, and KK unimproved once. (In the hand vs. the KK opponent, I still believe I didn't lose any money by slow playing. The opponent was a very smart player, and I strongly believe the result would have been close to the same. When I check raised the turn, he called my hand as either Aces or a set; although he did pay the $80 to see my hand. Quite possibly some other one pair hands might have been able to reach the river if I had been more aggressive preflop or on the flop)
- I cracked Aces of a solid player. UTG+1 open raised, MP called, SB called, I call with 2c6c in the big blind. Flop comes 2h6h9h. I check, UTG+1 bets, MP and SB fold. I check raise to see where I am at. UTG+1 3 bets (which I interpret as most likely an overpair). I call. Turn comes offsuit T. I check raise again. UTG+1 calls. River comes offsuit 8, putting 4 to the straight on board. STUPIDLY I let it be checked down. My opponent almost certainly has a big pocket pair here, and I definitely missed a value bet there. The only reasonable hands that beat me are 99 and TT, and even then I don't expect to be raised even if my opponent holds those hands. Turns out my opponent had AhAx, so I dodged 14 outs on the flop and 17 outs on the turn! Yikes! When you are runnning good, no one can seem to catch up.
- I limp in MP with 55 and see a 4 way flop with me in the best position. Flop comes T73, 1 flush draw. Checked around. Turn T737, 2 flush draws. Checked to me, I bet, 2 callers. Board pairs on Ts on the river, and I'm stuck with a 5 kicker (TT775). My opponents check fold to my bet. Whew, this is how a rush feels!
- I raise one limper in MP with KhQh. Blinds and limpers call. Flop comes AhTh5c. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls. blank comes on the turn. Checked to me, I bet, everyone calls. 6h comes on the river. BB bets, limper folds, I "think" for about 10 seconds, and notice that SB is going to fold (so there is ~zero~ point in only calling for an overcall or a check raise, besides even if SB might call only 1 bet, I should still raise with the nuts). I raise, SB folds, BB calls with his small flush. I show, Limper exclaims, "Damn!!!! My A was good."
The game actually got much better for the next 2-3 hours, with a VERY loose aggressive player, a total donkey, and a third somewhat loose player who sat down saying "I'm here to gamble". However, in this type of situation, the hands tend to be very multiway and almost certainly require having the best hand to win. I won very few pots in this period. That is just the way these situations go. The donkey put out some amazing suckouts during that time (runner runner, rivered gutshot when flop and turn was capped, etc), and paid off a very large number of river bets with truly ridiculous hands (e.g. bottom pair of 2s, 6 kicker when the board had 4 to the flush. The showdown was with the VERY loose player who had "bluffed" with 4th pair 3s, lousy kicker. Nice value bet.) Quite a sight to see. It was actually a pretty entertaining few hours, although pretty uneventful for me. I tried on every opportunity to see a flop with suited connectors, but missed every time. I was also "lucky" not to get any big pocket pairs during this time.
Thursday, July 14, 2005
Comfort zone and Miscellaneous topics
I've played close to 1000 hands at $20/$40 live since moving back up, and I'm starting to get significantly more comfortable in that game.
The cost of my mistakes are running at -0.55 BB/hour (-$22/hour), and my net results are a little better than +2.0BB/hour (+$80/hour). My target goal for 10000 hands is to have my mistakes at less than -0.25BB/hour (-$10/hour) and net results at > +1.5BB/hour (+$60/hour). I think these are reasonable targets. The "mistakes" goal is almost fully in my control, and the "net results" goal is extremely reasonable given the average $20/$40 player I have encountered.
Assuming the 10000 hands go according to plan, I should be ready for $40/$80 at that point. If my net $20/$40 results are in excess of +2.5BB/hour after 5000 hands (from playing well, not just from going on an amazing rush), I may start "taking a shot" at $40/$80 when the game looks good. Timing may also be influenced by how my online results contribute to my bankroll.
(By the way, my assumptions are that 10000 hands take approximately 220 hours to complete)
Generally speaking, I don't want to take substantial risks. Conversely, time stands still for no one, so I want to minimize the time it takes me to advance through levels. I would prefer not to have to stop playing because my bankroll reaches $0. Given my time constraints, I would be willing to take a 30% overall probability of going broke (in my poker bankroll) in my quest to move up in limits.
I do not know what level I can achieve. Maybe I will top out at $20/$40. Maybe I have been a lucky donkey, and I actually belong at $8/$16 or lower. My gut feeling at this point is that my max attainable limit is above $20/$40.
From what little I have observed of $40/$80, the game looks reasonable to good. My guess is that I require a moderate amount of additional live play experience (emphasis on learning to read people and the avoidence of giving out tells) and a solid bankroll.
I know that during his early years Daniel Negraneau played at $80/$160 with a mere 20BB, and that a very large % of world class cash game pros have gone completely broke during their early times.
My entry requirement for seriously playing $40/$80 will be less than -0.25BB/hour in mistakes at $20/$40 for the last 40 session hours and a 250BB bankroll.
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Metrics
As an aside, I wonder if there are any other metrics besides "mistakes" and "net results" that I should track.
I really don't think I need to track my VP$IP (volunterily put $ in pot), PFR% (preflop raise %), or postflop AF (aggression factor), because I have a relatively good feel for how these statistics should look for me given that I know my online statistics, and my starting hand selection and playing style would be fairly comparable. Besides, it is infeasible to track those metrics live.
I love to count things. For now, I'm not sure what else to count.
My new method for counting mistakes is simply to estimate the cost of a mistake in BB's. This often requires estimating the probability of actions taken by my opponents ~if~ I had made the "correct" play and also taking into account pot equity. Determining what someone ~would have done~ is not an exact science, but I thing my estimates should be reasonable enough for my purposes.
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Good game.... better game?
I was playing at a 9 seated $6/$12 game while waiting for my seat at the $20/$40 game. During a 15 minute timespan, there were 3 occasions where the action was capped preflop with at least 5 players. It was the loosest preflop action I have experience at the $6/$12 level. This was definitely a good game. My evaluation was that there were 3 maniacs, 2 very loose aggressive, 1 loose aggressive, and 2 tight aggressive players at the table.
I estimate that in the long run I could earn more than 5 BB/hour in such a game (with a high variance).
When I was called for my $20/$40, I observed that there were 4 players that I had never seen before at the $20/$40 table. In my recent sessions, I have been playing with roughly 70% regulars, so from a learning experience point of view I thought it would be a better use of my time to take the $20/$40 seat depite the good $6/$12 game.
The table change was a good one however. 3 of the players were very loose aggressive.
In the first 3 major hands I was involved in, I won big pots where either the looseness or the over aggresiveness of the involved opponents provided me with 6BB more than I think I should have won.
The net quality of the opponents was noticably higher than the 6/12, but in this case, the higher stakes overcame this factor. Based on the information I had at the time, I made the incorrect choice to change tables, but the actual choice turned out to be better anyways.
The cost of my mistakes are running at -0.55 BB/hour (-$22/hour), and my net results are a little better than +2.0BB/hour (+$80/hour). My target goal for 10000 hands is to have my mistakes at less than -0.25BB/hour (-$10/hour) and net results at > +1.5BB/hour (+$60/hour). I think these are reasonable targets. The "mistakes" goal is almost fully in my control, and the "net results" goal is extremely reasonable given the average $20/$40 player I have encountered.
Assuming the 10000 hands go according to plan, I should be ready for $40/$80 at that point. If my net $20/$40 results are in excess of +2.5BB/hour after 5000 hands (from playing well, not just from going on an amazing rush), I may start "taking a shot" at $40/$80 when the game looks good. Timing may also be influenced by how my online results contribute to my bankroll.
(By the way, my assumptions are that 10000 hands take approximately 220 hours to complete)
Generally speaking, I don't want to take substantial risks. Conversely, time stands still for no one, so I want to minimize the time it takes me to advance through levels. I would prefer not to have to stop playing because my bankroll reaches $0. Given my time constraints, I would be willing to take a 30% overall probability of going broke (in my poker bankroll) in my quest to move up in limits.
I do not know what level I can achieve. Maybe I will top out at $20/$40. Maybe I have been a lucky donkey, and I actually belong at $8/$16 or lower. My gut feeling at this point is that my max attainable limit is above $20/$40.
From what little I have observed of $40/$80, the game looks reasonable to good. My guess is that I require a moderate amount of additional live play experience (emphasis on learning to read people and the avoidence of giving out tells) and a solid bankroll.
I know that during his early years Daniel Negraneau played at $80/$160 with a mere 20BB, and that a very large % of world class cash game pros have gone completely broke during their early times.
My entry requirement for seriously playing $40/$80 will be less than -0.25BB/hour in mistakes at $20/$40 for the last 40 session hours and a 250BB bankroll.
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Metrics
As an aside, I wonder if there are any other metrics besides "mistakes" and "net results" that I should track.
I really don't think I need to track my VP$IP (volunterily put $ in pot), PFR% (preflop raise %), or postflop AF (aggression factor), because I have a relatively good feel for how these statistics should look for me given that I know my online statistics, and my starting hand selection and playing style would be fairly comparable. Besides, it is infeasible to track those metrics live.
I love to count things. For now, I'm not sure what else to count.
My new method for counting mistakes is simply to estimate the cost of a mistake in BB's. This often requires estimating the probability of actions taken by my opponents ~if~ I had made the "correct" play and also taking into account pot equity. Determining what someone ~would have done~ is not an exact science, but I thing my estimates should be reasonable enough for my purposes.
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Good game.... better game?
I was playing at a 9 seated $6/$12 game while waiting for my seat at the $20/$40 game. During a 15 minute timespan, there were 3 occasions where the action was capped preflop with at least 5 players. It was the loosest preflop action I have experience at the $6/$12 level. This was definitely a good game. My evaluation was that there were 3 maniacs, 2 very loose aggressive, 1 loose aggressive, and 2 tight aggressive players at the table.
I estimate that in the long run I could earn more than 5 BB/hour in such a game (with a high variance).
When I was called for my $20/$40, I observed that there were 4 players that I had never seen before at the $20/$40 table. In my recent sessions, I have been playing with roughly 70% regulars, so from a learning experience point of view I thought it would be a better use of my time to take the $20/$40 seat depite the good $6/$12 game.
The table change was a good one however. 3 of the players were very loose aggressive.
In the first 3 major hands I was involved in, I won big pots where either the looseness or the over aggresiveness of the involved opponents provided me with 6BB more than I think I should have won.
The net quality of the opponents was noticably higher than the 6/12, but in this case, the higher stakes overcame this factor. Based on the information I had at the time, I made the incorrect choice to change tables, but the actual choice turned out to be better anyways.
Monday, July 11, 2005
Strategic conerns
Lately I feel that I'm making substantially less mistakes in my live limit hold'em play. I'll still spend a great deal of effort in this area. I'm making this generalization based on my last 10 session hours. However, it is entirely possible that the situations in my last 10 session hours were so easy to play that mistakes would inherently be rare. Time will be the judge.
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My live play and results have been respectable lately, and my online play is possibly questionable with awful results. I'm trying to objectively determine if my live experiences are affecting the way I play online.
Generally I don't like to discuss actual results because it usually serves little purpose, but in this case I will try to give some context. The sample size is small, but I don't want to wait until I have 10000 hands behind me to determine a major strategic flaw.
Lately, my plan has been to play live at $20/$40 and online to multitable between 1-4 tables at $5/$10 depending on the availability of good games. My general feeling is that I should be able to have an earn rate 3x-5x times higher online (see my analysis on this in an earlier post)
As a general rule of thumb, online players are better than their live counterparts at the same level. However, perhaps my thoughts from the $20/$40 live are too strongly influencing my play in the $5/10 online.
My current run rate is about +1.7BB/hour live over the last 15 hours. My current run rate is about -4.3BB/hour online over the last 1500 hands. Yuck.
I've really been trying hard not to curse, swear or even grumble during my online sessions because I know how much it upsets my wife. I haven't come close to mastering this yet. (perhaps I should record myself playing an online session to see how bad this is.... serenity now, serenity now....)
The question I am pondering is if I'm being too liberal in making value bets on the river. I'll give 2 examples, and I'm honestly not posting them because they are bad beats but rather questioning whether I made incorrect value bets on the river (an area I have been really focusing on in my live game).
hand #1
10 seated online $5/10 limit hold'em
opponents: 3 tight aggressive, 1 tasmanian devil, 1 calling station, 2 gamblers, 2 loose passive
- preflop: tasmanian devil (TD) limps UTG, folded to Loose Passive1 (LP1) who limps, Gambler1(G1) raises, folded to me in CO. I reraise with KdKh. Folded to LP2 in BB who calls, everyone else calls (5 players, 15.5 small bets)
- flop: 4c7dJs, checked to me and I bet, LP2 folds, TD calls, LP1 folds, G1 calls. (3 players, 18.5 small bets)
- turn: 4c7dJsQs, checked to me and I bet, TD calls, G1 folds. (2 players, 11 big bets)
- river: 4c7dJsQs3c, TD checks, I bet, TD check raises, I call. TD shows 3s3d and wins a 15 BB pot.
hand #2
I don't recall the details as well.
- preflop: I raise UTG w TT and get called by 5 players including the blinds. (6 players, 12 small bets)
- flop: T62 with 2 suited cards. SB checks, BB bets, I raise, 2 cold callers and folded to BB who calls (4 players, 20 small bets)
- turn: T62A still with only 1 flush draw: BB checks, I check, 3rd player checks, 4th player bets, BB raises, I reraise, 3rd player folds, 4th player calls, BB calls. (3 players, 19 big bets)
- river: T62A8 no flush: BB checks, I bet, 4th player folds (nice bet on the turn buddy), BB check raises, I call. BB shows the nuts 97 offsuit and wins a 23BB pot.
In hand #1, I believe TD is capable of paying me off with a large range of worse hands and is even capable of bluff check raising on the river at least 20% of the time. I readily acknowledge there are quite a number of hands that beat me.
By the way, should I consider checking this safe flop to increase the probability of being able to get a raise in on the turn?
In hand #2, I have 3rd nuts, and I had trouble putting BB on either AA or 97. Reviewing the hand some more, AA is really a reasonable hand for BB to have. However, my analysis is still similar to hand #1, where I believe my value bet would get paid off by a very large range of hands and that my call will also win over a still sizable range of hands (smaller set, 2 pair, big A, etc). BTW, given that I have 3rd nuts and the way the hand is played, is there any value in 3 betting the river (forget about what BB actually had)?
Again my primary question is: am I being too loose in value betting the river? I have lost 2 extra big bets on the river a moderate number of times in these kinds of situations (though I haven't kept good statistics on the number of times I successfully value bet the river).
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On another note: I think I also need to more strongly remember that table image has very little weighting online. One exception to this may be an opponent that likely has me in their poker tracker database - the likely candidates for this are the tight agressive winning opponents for which I have a huge number of hands (indicating their are likely to be online pros who are very likely to be datamining). The relatively large amount of live play lately has probably subconsciously affected me into thinking more often than is correct that my opponents might consider my playing style in their situational analysis.
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I have an upcoming trip to Vegas in about 2 weeks. My current plan is to spend a moderate amount of time at $15/30 and/or $20/$40, and take a shot at $30/$60 if the game is decent (particularly if the $15/$30 or $20/$40 games are not good). If conditions are poor and/or I am somewhat tired (but not sleepy), I may play elect to play $8/$16. Anything above $30/$60 is beyond my current bankroll.
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My live play and results have been respectable lately, and my online play is possibly questionable with awful results. I'm trying to objectively determine if my live experiences are affecting the way I play online.
Generally I don't like to discuss actual results because it usually serves little purpose, but in this case I will try to give some context. The sample size is small, but I don't want to wait until I have 10000 hands behind me to determine a major strategic flaw.
Lately, my plan has been to play live at $20/$40 and online to multitable between 1-4 tables at $5/$10 depending on the availability of good games. My general feeling is that I should be able to have an earn rate 3x-5x times higher online (see my analysis on this in an earlier post)
As a general rule of thumb, online players are better than their live counterparts at the same level. However, perhaps my thoughts from the $20/$40 live are too strongly influencing my play in the $5/10 online.
My current run rate is about +1.7BB/hour live over the last 15 hours. My current run rate is about -4.3BB/hour online over the last 1500 hands. Yuck.
I've really been trying hard not to curse, swear or even grumble during my online sessions because I know how much it upsets my wife. I haven't come close to mastering this yet. (perhaps I should record myself playing an online session to see how bad this is.... serenity now, serenity now....)
The question I am pondering is if I'm being too liberal in making value bets on the river. I'll give 2 examples, and I'm honestly not posting them because they are bad beats but rather questioning whether I made incorrect value bets on the river (an area I have been really focusing on in my live game).
hand #1
10 seated online $5/10 limit hold'em
opponents: 3 tight aggressive, 1 tasmanian devil, 1 calling station, 2 gamblers, 2 loose passive
- preflop: tasmanian devil (TD) limps UTG, folded to Loose Passive1 (LP1) who limps, Gambler1(G1) raises, folded to me in CO. I reraise with KdKh. Folded to LP2 in BB who calls, everyone else calls (5 players, 15.5 small bets)
- flop: 4c7dJs, checked to me and I bet, LP2 folds, TD calls, LP1 folds, G1 calls. (3 players, 18.5 small bets)
- turn: 4c7dJsQs, checked to me and I bet, TD calls, G1 folds. (2 players, 11 big bets)
- river: 4c7dJsQs3c, TD checks, I bet, TD check raises, I call. TD shows 3s3d and wins a 15 BB pot.
hand #2
I don't recall the details as well.
- preflop: I raise UTG w TT and get called by 5 players including the blinds. (6 players, 12 small bets)
- flop: T62 with 2 suited cards. SB checks, BB bets, I raise, 2 cold callers and folded to BB who calls (4 players, 20 small bets)
- turn: T62A still with only 1 flush draw: BB checks, I check, 3rd player checks, 4th player bets, BB raises, I reraise, 3rd player folds, 4th player calls, BB calls. (3 players, 19 big bets)
- river: T62A8 no flush: BB checks, I bet, 4th player folds (nice bet on the turn buddy), BB check raises, I call. BB shows the nuts 97 offsuit and wins a 23BB pot.
In hand #1, I believe TD is capable of paying me off with a large range of worse hands and is even capable of bluff check raising on the river at least 20% of the time. I readily acknowledge there are quite a number of hands that beat me.
By the way, should I consider checking this safe flop to increase the probability of being able to get a raise in on the turn?
In hand #2, I have 3rd nuts, and I had trouble putting BB on either AA or 97. Reviewing the hand some more, AA is really a reasonable hand for BB to have. However, my analysis is still similar to hand #1, where I believe my value bet would get paid off by a very large range of hands and that my call will also win over a still sizable range of hands (smaller set, 2 pair, big A, etc). BTW, given that I have 3rd nuts and the way the hand is played, is there any value in 3 betting the river (forget about what BB actually had)?
Again my primary question is: am I being too loose in value betting the river? I have lost 2 extra big bets on the river a moderate number of times in these kinds of situations (though I haven't kept good statistics on the number of times I successfully value bet the river).
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On another note: I think I also need to more strongly remember that table image has very little weighting online. One exception to this may be an opponent that likely has me in their poker tracker database - the likely candidates for this are the tight agressive winning opponents for which I have a huge number of hands (indicating their are likely to be online pros who are very likely to be datamining). The relatively large amount of live play lately has probably subconsciously affected me into thinking more often than is correct that my opponents might consider my playing style in their situational analysis.
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I have an upcoming trip to Vegas in about 2 weeks. My current plan is to spend a moderate amount of time at $15/30 and/or $20/$40, and take a shot at $30/$60 if the game is decent (particularly if the $15/$30 or $20/$40 games are not good). If conditions are poor and/or I am somewhat tired (but not sleepy), I may play elect to play $8/$16. Anything above $30/$60 is beyond my current bankroll.
Friday, July 08, 2005
"How would ~you~ play it?"
Well, after the Vegas trip, I feel a lot more comfortable playing in mid-stakes games, so I have moved back to $20/$40 limit hold'em.
I am generally making fewer mistakes. However, that being said, here is a hand with a wide variety of mistakes made by yours truly. I think I need to study this hand some more. I am quite ashamed of the way I played this hand; there is no doubt who the donkey is here.
This hand is an exception to the norm, but boy does it stink!
hand #1
8 handed live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. My opponents are 2 solid props, 3 loose players, 1 good and sneaky player (who very freq limps preflop), and 1 straightforward player.
- preflop: A loose player in early pos limps, folded to Mr. Sneaky in mid pos who limps, Ms. LooseyGoosey limps on my right, I limp in the CO with QhJh, button folds, Mr. Prop in SB completes, and loose player in BB checks. (5 players, pot size 5 small bets)
- flop 4d8h9h: Mr. Prop bets out from SB, BB folds, Mr. Sneaky folds, Ms. LooseyGoosey raises, I cold call, Mr. Prop calls (3 players, pot size 11 small bets)
- turn 4d8h9h2c: Mr. Prop bets, Ms. LG calls, I call (3 players, pot size 8.5 small bets)
- river 4d8h9h2cQc: SB checks, Ms. LG checks, I think for a couple of seconds and Ms. LG impatiently says to me "checked to you...". I check. SB shows J9, Ms. LG mucks, I take the pot.
So could I have played this hand any worse? I think I made the wrong decision on almost every street. I essentially only put money in the pot whenever I did not have the best hand (with the possible exception of preflop).
Analysis
preflop: 3 loose players have limped in front of me. I have good position, and a hand that plays well multiway. It is a definite raising situation because of my relatively decent pot equity. I should have raised preflop, and only made a continuation bet on the flop if I hit the flop - pair or draw (and otherwise check or fold). To be honest, I was a bit scared to raise because I was afraid of how to play a flop against Mr. Sneaky if I only partially hit.
flop: it was bet and raised in front of me. I strongly have to think that SB has a single pair (since he will definitely check a set and possibly 2 pair), I don't know what Ms. LG has at this point (I believe she would raise with TPTK, 2 pair, set, flush draw, straight draw). I should reraise here for a few reasons - i) strong drawing hand gives me good pot equity, ii) I want to put pressure on hands like T9, T8, J8, J9 (if SB folds a pair or 8s or 9s with a J or Q kicker, it is a major coup since I would have bought 2 more outs - and I believe Mr. Prop is capable of making such a laydown if not on the flop, possibly on the turn - my guess is that he folds on the flop 20% of the time, and 25% of the time on the turn), iii) possibly buys a free card, iv) I do not fear a reraise. I probably felt a bit rushed to act. I could have called time for 5 seconds, and then made a confident raise. It could easily sell as 2 pair or a set, and even if Ms. LG has a set, I will still outdraw 33% of the time. Again, my good position matters greatly in this situation.
Gosh, how good would it have felt if I had 3 bet the flop and bet the turn causing SB to fold, and then won the pot on the river with Q high (if a brick had come on the river)!??!
Note: the flop anaylsis here is completely dependant on my ~not~ raising preflop. The logic would be very different otherwise.
turn: given the choices made preflop and on the flop, calling is reasonable. If I had 3 bet the flop, I would have made a continuation bet hoping not to be check raised.
river: when it is checked to me, how likely is it that I have the best hand? Did I miss a value bet? My play up until the river was extremely indicative of a draw. The Q on the river complete the JT open ended str, but will SB check a hand that beats me? I can't tell if I missed a value bet. I'm reasonable sure that Ms. LG would not have checked the nuts to me on the river. I guess a better way for me to think about it is what range of hands will SB call me with?
In order of importance, the mistakes are:
- missing 3 bet on the flop
- not raising preflop
- possible missing value bet on the river
Given that Ms. LG mucked to SB's pair of 9s, does this definitely means she was on the flush draw as well? I would say almost certainly yes, with 50/50 chance of a better/worse flush draw. She certainly didn't have JT. I can't comprehend her raising the flop w a worse pair than SB.
This was one of those hands where it was right to have been much more aggressive, and I would have made at least 1.5BB and possibly substantially more by being aggressive. And I wouldn't have had to show my hand.
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In general, my primary mistakes are 1) calling a bit too much on the river when I am almost certainly beaten (but don't get the wrong idea, I reach a showdown on the river less than 3% of the hands) and 2) checking too much when I am likely (~55%-75% sure) to have the best hand on the river. On average I may be making each of these mistakes close to once every 2 hours. That is way too often.
I am generally making fewer mistakes. However, that being said, here is a hand with a wide variety of mistakes made by yours truly. I think I need to study this hand some more. I am quite ashamed of the way I played this hand; there is no doubt who the donkey is here.
This hand is an exception to the norm, but boy does it stink!
hand #1
8 handed live $20/$40 limit hold'em game. My opponents are 2 solid props, 3 loose players, 1 good and sneaky player (who very freq limps preflop), and 1 straightforward player.
- preflop: A loose player in early pos limps, folded to Mr. Sneaky in mid pos who limps, Ms. LooseyGoosey limps on my right, I limp in the CO with QhJh, button folds, Mr. Prop in SB completes, and loose player in BB checks. (5 players, pot size 5 small bets)
- flop 4d8h9h: Mr. Prop bets out from SB, BB folds, Mr. Sneaky folds, Ms. LooseyGoosey raises, I cold call, Mr. Prop calls (3 players, pot size 11 small bets)
- turn 4d8h9h2c: Mr. Prop bets, Ms. LG calls, I call (3 players, pot size 8.5 small bets)
- river 4d8h9h2cQc: SB checks, Ms. LG checks, I think for a couple of seconds and Ms. LG impatiently says to me "checked to you...". I check. SB shows J9, Ms. LG mucks, I take the pot.
So could I have played this hand any worse? I think I made the wrong decision on almost every street. I essentially only put money in the pot whenever I did not have the best hand (with the possible exception of preflop).
Analysis
preflop: 3 loose players have limped in front of me. I have good position, and a hand that plays well multiway. It is a definite raising situation because of my relatively decent pot equity. I should have raised preflop, and only made a continuation bet on the flop if I hit the flop - pair or draw (and otherwise check or fold). To be honest, I was a bit scared to raise because I was afraid of how to play a flop against Mr. Sneaky if I only partially hit.
flop: it was bet and raised in front of me. I strongly have to think that SB has a single pair (since he will definitely check a set and possibly 2 pair), I don't know what Ms. LG has at this point (I believe she would raise with TPTK, 2 pair, set, flush draw, straight draw). I should reraise here for a few reasons - i) strong drawing hand gives me good pot equity, ii) I want to put pressure on hands like T9, T8, J8, J9 (if SB folds a pair or 8s or 9s with a J or Q kicker, it is a major coup since I would have bought 2 more outs - and I believe Mr. Prop is capable of making such a laydown if not on the flop, possibly on the turn - my guess is that he folds on the flop 20% of the time, and 25% of the time on the turn), iii) possibly buys a free card, iv) I do not fear a reraise. I probably felt a bit rushed to act. I could have called time for 5 seconds, and then made a confident raise. It could easily sell as 2 pair or a set, and even if Ms. LG has a set, I will still outdraw 33% of the time. Again, my good position matters greatly in this situation.
Gosh, how good would it have felt if I had 3 bet the flop and bet the turn causing SB to fold, and then won the pot on the river with Q high (if a brick had come on the river)!??!
Note: the flop anaylsis here is completely dependant on my ~not~ raising preflop. The logic would be very different otherwise.
turn: given the choices made preflop and on the flop, calling is reasonable. If I had 3 bet the flop, I would have made a continuation bet hoping not to be check raised.
river: when it is checked to me, how likely is it that I have the best hand? Did I miss a value bet? My play up until the river was extremely indicative of a draw. The Q on the river complete the JT open ended str, but will SB check a hand that beats me? I can't tell if I missed a value bet. I'm reasonable sure that Ms. LG would not have checked the nuts to me on the river. I guess a better way for me to think about it is what range of hands will SB call me with?
In order of importance, the mistakes are:
- missing 3 bet on the flop
- not raising preflop
- possible missing value bet on the river
Given that Ms. LG mucked to SB's pair of 9s, does this definitely means she was on the flush draw as well? I would say almost certainly yes, with 50/50 chance of a better/worse flush draw. She certainly didn't have JT. I can't comprehend her raising the flop w a worse pair than SB.
This was one of those hands where it was right to have been much more aggressive, and I would have made at least 1.5BB and possibly substantially more by being aggressive. And I wouldn't have had to show my hand.
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In general, my primary mistakes are 1) calling a bit too much on the river when I am almost certainly beaten (but don't get the wrong idea, I reach a showdown on the river less than 3% of the hands) and 2) checking too much when I am likely (~55%-75% sure) to have the best hand on the river. On average I may be making each of these mistakes close to once every 2 hours. That is way too often.
Tuesday, July 05, 2005
Vegas trip report
My first Vegas poker experience was satisfactory.
Overview
I managed to get in a combined 10 session hours during the trip at Aladdin, Bellagio, and Wynn. Given the situations I encountered, my results were reasonable: ~3BB/hour. For example, during a shorter session at the Bellagio, I was able to extract the maximum from my hands and lose the minimum when at a table with 5 tourists and 3 locals. During a later session at a much tougher table, I lost two large pots to a very LAGgy player with strong 2nd best hands. So the sessions kind of balanced themselves out.
Quality of Games
I may not have enough playing time to make a good comparision, but my initial thoughts are that the Vegas games are moderately better than the games at my local cardroom - perhaps 1 BB/hour better, perhaps much more. The obvious scenarios this derives from is the tourist. The "I didn't come all the way to Vegas to fold" mentality (although this can introduce bigger variance in short term results because there will naturally be more outdraws). Also, during a 3am-6am session I noticed ~20% of the players in the cardroom were falling asleep at the table. (a.k.a. The "I'm only in town until tomorrow, so I'm going to play all night long" mentality). It was amazing to me that players would often need to be woken up when it was their turn to act, yet they would still remain at the table.
The alcohol factor was also present. However, I didn't have the feeling that this differed all that much compared to players at my local cardroom during an evening or weekend session.
Bad Beats
By rough guess, I would estimate that I gave and received approximately the appropriate number of bad beats. (It is much harder to estimate bad beats received live since you generally will not see mucked hands in river showdowns. Naturally, it is just as easy to count the number of bad beats I gave live vs online. :P) Anyway, my only point is that it felt like the number of outdraws for and against was not out of line, and hence my results are not too skewed.
Mistakes
As far as I can recollect, I recall only wasting 3BB the whole trip in clear mistakes. (1 call when I was clearly beaten, 1 missed value bet against a loose passive player, 1 poor river bluff where my opponent would clearly call) I did make 1 other crying call on the river with TPTK because I was getting too concerned my play had become too weak tight in one particular session.
In terms of macro decisions, the most notable thing was that I did not elect to leave a table where I had a weak table image.
Table image
During ~70% of my table hours, I interpretted my table image to be strong. The discussion of table image assumes that opponents pay attention. I believe my sesssions ranged from having as few as 2 opponents paying attention (at a 3am session) to having all opponents paying attention (at a 6pm session).
It is difficult to pin down the value of strong table image, but I would venture to guess it was worth ~2BB per hour from 3 major types of situations: 1) opponents are considerably less likely to try bluffing you, 2) higher probability to steal the pot when scare cards come on the board, 3) opponents give you more free cards to avoid getting raised or check raised.
A big part of table image gets built up in the first half hour or so after being seated. Sometimes just the way the cards are dealt, you can't really help ending up with a very weak table image. When that happens, I need to remember to switch tables or just call it quits.
My play
Generally speaking, I was satisfied with my postflop play. I usually bet or raised correctly to protect my hand. I selectively raised to get free cards with good draws. I built large pots on the flop with monster draws (quality pair with nut flush draw, open ended straight flush draw, etc.) (though I actually missed my hand on all of those occasions!)
I'm not completely sure I caught enough turn or river bluffs (when I had hands like big unimproved As and mid pocket pairs w many overcards in short handed pots). Possibly I did not call down on enough hands. Hard to tell, but my feeling is that I didn't catch enough bluffs.
I also think I don't pick up on enough tells. I have to work on this more.
During all sessions, I was playing somewhat tired. It was almost unavoidable in this trip. This likely had a modest impact on my judgement. It may also have affected how many tells I might have put out (the most likely scenario is that I didn't get maximum value for my big hands). I need to plan more carefully how to be well rested before any further Vegas poker adventures.
Sightings
Other notes on the trip: I saw MicroBob at the Bellagio, so I introduced myself. There were some name stars in the poker room that day as well - Mel Judah, David Chiu, Chao Giang to name a few.
Poker rooms
The Bellagio and Wynn poker rooms are both very nice. The rooms are both non-smoking, but since smoking is permitted in the rest of the casino, then smoke can filter in from people standing on the rail. The chairs at both rooms are comfortable, although the Bellagio seats don't have wheels which I prefer. The lighting is reasonable, although I'd prefer brighter. The way I read my hole cards, I could rarely see the color of my cards because of the lighting so it would often take me longer to look at them. (i.e. I would often be determining suit by shape instead of color and shape) I usually only look at my hole cards when it is my turn to act, but since it was taking me a second or two longer to read them, I eventually starting reading them in advance.
The rake at Vegas poker rooms is much more reasonable than my local cardroom. I estimate for an $8/$16 game, the higher rake would probably cost me $5/hour more at my local cardroom. This I would consider significant.
I found that the # hands per hour was probably 5-10% less than at my local card room, even though all places I have played used card shuffling machines. Factors that had an influence on the fewer number of hands included: far more inexperienced players (e.g. not noticing it was their turn to act), when players were slow to act (for whatever reason) the other players and the dealer did not push very hard to speed up the action, more dealer interuptions (e.g. dealer exchanging chips for whatever reason), possibly slightly more dealer mistakes than I am used to seeing.
The wait list system at the Bellagio is too primitive for my liking. I have heard the wait list system is nice at the Wynn, but I didn't see it since I was immediately seated.
Overview
I managed to get in a combined 10 session hours during the trip at Aladdin, Bellagio, and Wynn. Given the situations I encountered, my results were reasonable: ~3BB/hour. For example, during a shorter session at the Bellagio, I was able to extract the maximum from my hands and lose the minimum when at a table with 5 tourists and 3 locals. During a later session at a much tougher table, I lost two large pots to a very LAGgy player with strong 2nd best hands. So the sessions kind of balanced themselves out.
Quality of Games
I may not have enough playing time to make a good comparision, but my initial thoughts are that the Vegas games are moderately better than the games at my local cardroom - perhaps 1 BB/hour better, perhaps much more. The obvious scenarios this derives from is the tourist. The "I didn't come all the way to Vegas to fold" mentality (although this can introduce bigger variance in short term results because there will naturally be more outdraws). Also, during a 3am-6am session I noticed ~20% of the players in the cardroom were falling asleep at the table. (a.k.a. The "I'm only in town until tomorrow, so I'm going to play all night long" mentality). It was amazing to me that players would often need to be woken up when it was their turn to act, yet they would still remain at the table.
The alcohol factor was also present. However, I didn't have the feeling that this differed all that much compared to players at my local cardroom during an evening or weekend session.
Bad Beats
By rough guess, I would estimate that I gave and received approximately the appropriate number of bad beats. (It is much harder to estimate bad beats received live since you generally will not see mucked hands in river showdowns. Naturally, it is just as easy to count the number of bad beats I gave live vs online. :P) Anyway, my only point is that it felt like the number of outdraws for and against was not out of line, and hence my results are not too skewed.
Mistakes
As far as I can recollect, I recall only wasting 3BB the whole trip in clear mistakes. (1 call when I was clearly beaten, 1 missed value bet against a loose passive player, 1 poor river bluff where my opponent would clearly call) I did make 1 other crying call on the river with TPTK because I was getting too concerned my play had become too weak tight in one particular session.
In terms of macro decisions, the most notable thing was that I did not elect to leave a table where I had a weak table image.
Table image
During ~70% of my table hours, I interpretted my table image to be strong. The discussion of table image assumes that opponents pay attention. I believe my sesssions ranged from having as few as 2 opponents paying attention (at a 3am session) to having all opponents paying attention (at a 6pm session).
It is difficult to pin down the value of strong table image, but I would venture to guess it was worth ~2BB per hour from 3 major types of situations: 1) opponents are considerably less likely to try bluffing you, 2) higher probability to steal the pot when scare cards come on the board, 3) opponents give you more free cards to avoid getting raised or check raised.
A big part of table image gets built up in the first half hour or so after being seated. Sometimes just the way the cards are dealt, you can't really help ending up with a very weak table image. When that happens, I need to remember to switch tables or just call it quits.
My play
Generally speaking, I was satisfied with my postflop play. I usually bet or raised correctly to protect my hand. I selectively raised to get free cards with good draws. I built large pots on the flop with monster draws (quality pair with nut flush draw, open ended straight flush draw, etc.) (though I actually missed my hand on all of those occasions!)
I'm not completely sure I caught enough turn or river bluffs (when I had hands like big unimproved As and mid pocket pairs w many overcards in short handed pots). Possibly I did not call down on enough hands. Hard to tell, but my feeling is that I didn't catch enough bluffs.
I also think I don't pick up on enough tells. I have to work on this more.
During all sessions, I was playing somewhat tired. It was almost unavoidable in this trip. This likely had a modest impact on my judgement. It may also have affected how many tells I might have put out (the most likely scenario is that I didn't get maximum value for my big hands). I need to plan more carefully how to be well rested before any further Vegas poker adventures.
Sightings
Other notes on the trip: I saw MicroBob at the Bellagio, so I introduced myself. There were some name stars in the poker room that day as well - Mel Judah, David Chiu, Chao Giang to name a few.
Poker rooms
The Bellagio and Wynn poker rooms are both very nice. The rooms are both non-smoking, but since smoking is permitted in the rest of the casino, then smoke can filter in from people standing on the rail. The chairs at both rooms are comfortable, although the Bellagio seats don't have wheels which I prefer. The lighting is reasonable, although I'd prefer brighter. The way I read my hole cards, I could rarely see the color of my cards because of the lighting so it would often take me longer to look at them. (i.e. I would often be determining suit by shape instead of color and shape) I usually only look at my hole cards when it is my turn to act, but since it was taking me a second or two longer to read them, I eventually starting reading them in advance.
The rake at Vegas poker rooms is much more reasonable than my local cardroom. I estimate for an $8/$16 game, the higher rake would probably cost me $5/hour more at my local cardroom. This I would consider significant.
I found that the # hands per hour was probably 5-10% less than at my local card room, even though all places I have played used card shuffling machines. Factors that had an influence on the fewer number of hands included: far more inexperienced players (e.g. not noticing it was their turn to act), when players were slow to act (for whatever reason) the other players and the dealer did not push very hard to speed up the action, more dealer interuptions (e.g. dealer exchanging chips for whatever reason), possibly slightly more dealer mistakes than I am used to seeing.
The wait list system at the Bellagio is too primitive for my liking. I have heard the wait list system is nice at the Wynn, but I didn't see it since I was immediately seated.
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