Thursday, March 30, 2006

Virgin Stud

I played my absolutely first session of live 7 Card Stud (Hi) today. The only game running was a $4/$8 limit game with $1 ante and $1 bring in.

Probably no one will be interested to read this hand, but I'm posting it for myself so that I can come back and read my thoughts after gaining more experience. As this is a new game for me, I expect that there will be a large percentage of hands that will require postgame analysis. However, I don't even know how to write a hand history for Stud!

This hand occured fairly early in the session, and I had yet to see 4th street. In the meantime I had been asking the dealer quite a number of Stud rules questions. 3s has already busted twice and each time had done a short buy of $40. I had a very large stack of chips that I had brought over from an Omaha8 game and not bothered to cash out. 7s has a large number of stacks in front of him and seems like a decent player. 5s also seemed like a decent player.

hand #1
8 handed 7CS (Hi only), Hero is in the 8s.
- 3rd st:
1s: XX-2h
2s: XX-Th
3s: XX-Qc
4s: XX-Jh
5s: XX-Kd
6s: XX-Jd
7s: XX-3h
Hero is dealt 4s6s-2d, and brings it in for $1, muck, muck, 3s completes, call, call, muck, call, Hero calls (5 players, 7 small bets)
- 4th st:
3s: XX-Qc7h
4s: XX-Jh2c
5s: XX-Kd9c
7s: XX-3h5d
Hero: 4s6s-2d5s, and it is checked around (5 players, 7 small bets)
- 5th st:
3s: XX-Qc4hTd
4s: XX-Jh2cTc
5s: XX-Kd9c?
7s: XX-3h5d5c
Hero: 4s6s-2d5s7c
7s bets, (3s starts to call), Hero raises, all fold. (final pot 6.5 big bets)

After I raised, 3s went in the tank and eventually commented that I was raising with 257 offsuit? I replied that I have no idea what I'm doing and my plan was to get everyone to fold. After thinking another 30 seconds, 3s mucked and everyone else turbo mucked behind him.

I have no idea how bad or how good my 5th street play is, but my understanding is that aggression is important in limit poker.
- At the time, my goal was to win the hand without a showdown. If I get headsup with 7s, I will bet all the way unless 7s visibly improves on 6th st (and I do not). I will have position on 7s the vast majority of the time for the remainder of the hand.
- What is the value of my hand here? My 3 flush is completely live (but it is 5th st already), only 1 of my OESD cards is out. A 6 or 7 might improve me to best hand.
- What hands could my opponents think I am representing? I assume I am representing 2 pair or a set.
- The pot size seems to be right at that marginal size that it is big enough to semibluff, and yet not so big that I'd get too many callers
- What should I do if 7s (re)raises me on 5th or 6th street?
--- On a 5th street 3 bet, I would 4 bet and take a free card unimproved on 6th street. If 7s bet out on 6th street, I would muck.
--- If 7s called on 5th street and CR'd 6th street, I would muck.


cc said...

I think your best move was getting everyone to fold. That way you didn't have to remember what everyone mucked. Although maybe you have some sort of photographic memory.

d said...

I wish I had a better short term memory. I've been trying to learn the memorization techniques that were posted at 2+2.
In this hand, I couldn't remember 5s board cards. I might have gotten the suits mixed up a little, but I did remember that only 4s had a 2 flush.

d said...

Here is a helpful comment I received from D.S.C. in an email
Since I’m not on Blogger you get an email. You are drawing to 7 outs, twice against 36 cards (pairing one of your low cards probably isn’t going to do much in this field if you get called all the way). You’re like a 2.5:1 dog to get there. Also, you are not really threatened by anyone’s board if you make your straight. Probably winners at this point are going to be a big pair or two pair somewhere. So, you really want value out of this hand. You need at least three people coming along to give you the drawing odds that you need to make money.

I’m not sure why the 3s folded. Maybe he put you squarely on wired 7s. Your checkraise says strength as you get to the big betting rounds. He’s probably in the tank because he’s got an inside Broadway draw and is trying to figure out if his high card outs are any good.

I haven’t played enough to know that it was good, but I probably would have played a little more passively to generate a little more value. Low-limit stud, like most low limit games, doesn’t generate a lot of fold equity.

d said...


I really don't have a good feel for the strength of draws in 7CS. The 3 players behind me have 2-straights on their boards although they are all over the same range. This devalues those draws, right?

I agree that a very likely candidate that 3s folded was a gutshot broadway, and even before the action reaches him on 5th st (and I learn that he has a tough decision), this is likely given his 3rd and 4th st actions.

The way I was taught to count my outs (in Miller's Small Stakes Hold'em book) was to add 1 additional out for a backdoor draw. 8 outs makes me a 2.2:1 dog. The pot is 4.5BB when it is my turn to act. I definitely want 3s,4s,and 5s to fold, but even if only 1 calls (and 7s calls, and no one 3 bets,...yes a lot of ifs), the odds I am getting for all the money put in the pot on 5th st is not much lower than my pot equity.
Estimating fold equity is probably important here. The game has seemed pretty loose passive at that point, but I didn't recall any player calling 2 bets cold in any prior hand.

d said...

Geez, another thing I am really not used to in 7CS coming from a Hold'em background is computing pot equity on a given street. In Hold'em there are always 47 unknown cards on the flop and 46 on the turn (unless one or more were exposed in a live game...)
In the posted hand, I believe I have 8 outs. There are 20 known cards (my 5, 4x3 board cards of my 4 opponents, and 3 door cards folded on 3rd st). 8/32 going into 6th st and 8/31 going to the river. This seems to be 45% pot equity to me.
Calculating pot equity is a lot of work!!!